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China right now is national socialism like Hitler could only dream of implementing. It is eerie how directly parallel developments are, and how little this is r

China right now is national socialism like Hitler could only dream of implementing. It is eerie how directly parallel developments are, and how little this is remarked.

kentrado 7y ago
It is more state capitalism. Socialism implies more democracy.
- thrower123 7y ago
  National Socialism was state capitalism. The CCP's control of their corporations and conglomerates is almost like they took Speer's notebooks and followed them to the letter. It's possible that Krupp and IG Farben and Messerschmitt were able to wag the dog a little more than their Chinese equivalents, but the resemblances are striking.
  - atomi 7y ago
    You could make the argument that the bigger problem, still, is China's lack of political diversity. One party has supreme control.
  - kentrado 7y ago
    If the workers can't control the means of production, it is not socialism. Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. Just because North Korea's name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea doesn't mean it is democratic. Naming stuff their opposite doesn't make it so, but I'll admit it has been pretty effective for convincing people who don't know the true definition.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      I'm confused - are you trying to say that the Nazis weren't socialist and so can't be compared to China, or that China isn't socialist and so can't be compared to the Nazis? Or just that we shouldn't use the word "socialism" in conjunction with either, despite that being the name of one of the groups in question?
      - kentrado 7y ago
        Would you use the word democratic to describe North Korea, despite that being the name of the country?
        DuskStar 7y ago
        No, but by your standards 'Socialist' describes Nazi Germany approximately as well as it does China.
        kentrado 7y ago
        I think you are misunderstanding what I said.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        > Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. > What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. In other words, China is not Socialist. Presumably, neither was the National Socialist German Workers Party while it was in control of the country. The question then becomes, why is this relevant. Why say "that's not true Socialism!" in response to someone comparing Nazi Germany with China, when neither was Socialist?
        kentrado 7y ago
        Then it is I who misunderstood. No biggie, everyone makes mistakes. Just ignore my comment and carry on.
    - thepaperone 7y ago
      >Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What a hilarious retelling! Marx himself would laugh at you. It's called the dictatorship of the proletariat for a reason.
- croon 7y ago
  Far be it from nazis to portray themselves as something they're not...
- briandear 7y ago
  Socialism implies more democracy? Is Venenzuela more democratic? The only real democracy is that which is based on a government that is biased towards the center. Far left and far right is never democratic. Democracy working correctly is filled with compromise.
undersuit 7y ago
Hitler implemented "National Socialism." Hitler may try to argue that it is 'national socialism', but all fascists will lie to your face if it can empower them. >The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism" The Nazis got to define National Socialism as they liked, even if the meaning drifted slightly from what you could consider a national socialist ideology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
- LocalH 7y ago
  They also defined the swastika as they liked, despite centuries of prior use, and they won that one. Really surprised the inconsistency survives, tbh
  - undersuit 7y ago
    Ehh what are you going to do? It's not like people spray painting swastikas really care that it's badly drawn or the other uses of the swastika. They "won" only in the sense that I'm 99.99999% certain when I see a white man drawing a swastika on the wall he's not wishing people luck and well-being.
- darawk 7y ago
  Is 'national socialism' a thing outside of Nazi Germany? I thought the term was basically invented by the nazis.
  - undersuit 7y ago
    Forget the whole genocide against the Jews(and other groups) and a lot of the fascism and I would say yes. Heck, I'd classify a lot of the US's current rhetoric about access to social services(or even the protections of the Constitution) being only available to citizens as national socialism.
blablabla123 7y ago
Not really, it's really different. One shouldn't forget the whole setup of early 20th century. War was a very normal thing, it was after WW I which was really horrible and there wasn't even a UN at the time. National socialism in Germany was about very aggressive expansion combined with very extreme racism, many people were murdered deliberately at all stages of it in an industrialized manner. I would say this remains still very unique. Both humanity and nation states have made a development since then. Certainly one can draw comparisons but there are worlds in between.
cmrdporcupine 7y ago
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_socialism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_socialism "An entirely Americentric argument, spurred on by certain batty ideologues and infamous websites, claims that Adolf Hitler was not the far-right, anti-communist nationalist that everyone else remembers him to be, but rather an egalitarian socialist.[note 1] Much like the Discovery Institute and their assault on the theory of evolution, this attempts to evoke the association fallacy on anyone who practices left-wing politics and by that standard anyone who slightly leans to the left is an adherent of fascism ... For this argument to be even close to being solvent ... good chunks of history need to be thrown out the window: That the 96-member Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) was Hitler's main opposition in the Reichstag and the only political party that attempted to halt the laws that established him as dictator and brought down the Weimar Republic. In fact, all of the ideological predecessors of today's conservative and classically liberal parties voted unanimously for the law, while the SPD voted unanimously against despite the presence of SA guards in the building.[3][4] That the first political groups targeted during the Nazi ascendancy were pacifists, trade unionists and communists.[5][6] That Strasserism, the only strand of Nazism that could be referred to as "left-wing" (i.e. pro-working class in nature), were all killed off (with a handful of conservative dissidents) in what we all know as the Night of the Long Knives. About the only true socialists within the Nazi Party include the likes of Gregor and Otto Strasser for example[note 2]"
- thrower123 7y ago
  Only numbskulls really believe that National Socialism was in any way socialist. I should have capitalized the initial comment correctly, but I was on my phone. The fact remains that China has effectively implemented and perfected National Socialism. Call it fascism if you prefer. But it is difficult to look at a state that has entwined single-party authoritarian rule around capitalist economic principles and not see the comparison. That they are brazenly suppressing and exterminating ethnic and religious minorities is icing on the cake.

China right now is national socialism like Hitler could only dream of implementing. It is eerie how directly parallel developments are, and how little this is remarked.

kentrado 7y ago

It is more state capitalism. Socialism implies more democracy.

thrower123 7y ago
National Socialism was state capitalism. The CCP's control of their corporations and conglomerates is almost like they took Speer's notebooks and followed them to the letter. It's possible that Krupp and IG Farben and Messerschmitt were able to wag the dog a little more than their Chinese equivalents, but the resemblances are striking.
- atomi 7y ago
  You could make the argument that the bigger problem, still, is China's lack of political diversity. One party has supreme control.
- kentrado 7y ago
  If the workers can't control the means of production, it is not socialism. Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. Just because North Korea's name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea doesn't mean it is democratic. Naming stuff their opposite doesn't make it so, but I'll admit it has been pretty effective for convincing people who don't know the true definition.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    I'm confused - are you trying to say that the Nazis weren't socialist and so can't be compared to China, or that China isn't socialist and so can't be compared to the Nazis? Or just that we shouldn't use the word "socialism" in conjunction with either, despite that being the name of one of the groups in question?
    - kentrado 7y ago
      Would you use the word democratic to describe North Korea, despite that being the name of the country?
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        No, but by your standards 'Socialist' describes Nazi Germany approximately as well as it does China.
        kentrado 7y ago
        I think you are misunderstanding what I said.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        > Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. > What China has done is replace the authoritarian bourgeois with an authoritarian government. In other words, China is not Socialist. Presumably, neither was the National Socialist German Workers Party while it was in control of the country. The question then becomes, why is this relevant. Why say "that's not true Socialism!" in response to someone comparing Nazi Germany with China, when neither was Socialist?
        kentrado 7y ago
        Then it is I who misunderstood. No biggie, everyone makes mistakes. Just ignore my comment and carry on.
  - thepaperone 7y ago
    >Socialism calls for the democracy of the workplace. What a hilarious retelling! Marx himself would laugh at you. It's called the dictatorship of the proletariat for a reason.
croon 7y ago
Far be it from nazis to portray themselves as something they're not...
briandear 7y ago
Socialism implies more democracy? Is Venenzuela more democratic? The only real democracy is that which is based on a government that is biased towards the center. Far left and far right is never democratic. Democracy working correctly is filled with compromise.

undersuit 7y ago

Hitler implemented "National Socialism." Hitler may try to argue that it is 'national socialism', but all fascists will lie to your face if it can empower them. >The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism" The Nazis got to define National Socialism as they liked, even if the meaning drifted slightly from what you could consider a national socialist ideology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

LocalH 7y ago
They also defined the swastika as they liked, despite centuries of prior use, and they won that one. Really surprised the inconsistency survives, tbh
- undersuit 7y ago
  Ehh what are you going to do? It's not like people spray painting swastikas really care that it's badly drawn or the other uses of the swastika. They "won" only in the sense that I'm 99.99999% certain when I see a white man drawing a swastika on the wall he's not wishing people luck and well-being.
darawk 7y ago
Is 'national socialism' a thing outside of Nazi Germany? I thought the term was basically invented by the nazis.
- undersuit 7y ago
  Forget the whole genocide against the Jews(and other groups) and a lot of the fascism and I would say yes. Heck, I'd classify a lot of the US's current rhetoric about access to social services(or even the protections of the Constitution) being only available to citizens as national socialism.

blablabla123 7y ago

Not really, it's really different. One shouldn't forget the whole setup of early 20th century. War was a very normal thing, it was after WW I which was really horrible and there wasn't even a UN at the time. National socialism in Germany was about very aggressive expansion combined with very extreme racism, many people were murdered deliberately at all stages of it in an industrialized manner. I would say this remains still very unique. Both humanity and nation states have made a development since then. Certainly one can draw comparisons but there are worlds in between.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_socialism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_socialism "An entirely Americentric argument, spurred on by certain batty ideologues and infamous websites, claims that Adolf Hitler was not the far-right, anti-communist nationalist that everyone else remembers him to be, but rather an egalitarian socialist.[note 1] Much like the Discovery Institute and their assault on the theory of evolution, this attempts to evoke the association fallacy on anyone who practices left-wing politics and by that standard anyone who slightly leans to the left is an adherent of fascism ... For this argument to be even close to being solvent ... good chunks of history need to be thrown out the window: That the 96-member Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) was Hitler's main opposition in the Reichstag and the only political party that attempted to halt the laws that established him as dictator and brought down the Weimar Republic. In fact, all of the ideological predecessors of today's conservative and classically liberal parties voted unanimously for the law, while the SPD voted unanimously against despite the presence of SA guards in the building.[3][4] That the first political groups targeted during the Nazi ascendancy were pacifists, trade unionists and communists.[5][6] That Strasserism, the only strand of Nazism that could be referred to as "left-wing" (i.e. pro-working class in nature), were all killed off (with a handful of conservative dissidents) in what we all know as the Night of the Long Knives. About the only true socialists within the Nazi Party include the likes of Gregor and Otto Strasser for example[note 2]"

thrower123 7y ago
Only numbskulls really believe that National Socialism was in any way socialist. I should have capitalized the initial comment correctly, but I was on my phone. The fact remains that China has effectively implemented and perfected National Socialism. Call it fascism if you prefer. But it is difficult to look at a state that has entwined single-party authoritarian rule around capitalist economic principles and not see the comparison. That they are brazenly suppressing and exterminating ethnic and religious minorities is icing on the cake.