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I wonder at what point would corporations consider it a risk too big. Any comment can trigger the Chinese, it’s hard to gauge what they find insulting, since a

I wonder at what point would corporations consider it a risk too big. Any comment can trigger the Chinese, it’s hard to gauge what they find insulting, since according to them all their neighbors and the west has humiliated them in the past. The volatility to the bottom line jsut isn’t worth it.

dang 7y ago
> Any comment can trigger the Chinese Not only the Chinese, I assure you. Nationalistic flamebait like this is a bannable offense on HN—not to mention racial/national slurs. The users who upvoted and (later) vouched for this comment have abused this site by doing so. People routinely accuse us of being somehow pro-China or secret communists for moderating HN this way, but that's not true at all. We don't like bullies or mobs, and any time that dynamic springs up here—which unfortunately is all the time, this being the internet—we instinctively take the opposite side. What's surprising to me is how so many users, who I'm sure are decent people, engage in that kind of thing. I know it's largely a matter of their background but users with the opposite background also belong here, and deserve better. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21188577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21188577.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  Relax, he was clearly talking about the Chinese government, not Chinese people in general.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    I think we need to be really clear when we talk about these things. When we write “the Chinese” there is bound to be at least some subset of readers who see that and assume the write meant all Chinese. I don’t believe we can be certain of the writers intent until the writer makes it clear.
    - thrwy_01 7y ago
      Even if the writers clearly make this distinction, Chinese people, driven by Chinese propaganda, will often conflate the two. Indeed, Chinese people, even in a non political context will sometimes treat a comment about a single Chinese individual as a statement about all Chinese people.
      - dang 7y ago
        That's a separate issue. It's enough to clearly make this distinction oneself. What you're saying about "Chinese people" seems to me true of all people.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - dang 7y ago
    Your bias predisposes you to read it that way. Were you responsible for a community with a wide spectrum of backgrounds and views, you'd quickly learn how unreliable that sense of "clearly" can be. HN users who are Chinese or of Chinese background have a right to come here and not see comments like that one, just the same as all HN users do. Edit: actually, once I read the context of the thread, I see your point. The parent comments were talking about the Chinese government, so it's reasonable to see that as having been in scope.
    - Teever 7y ago
      I'm a little confused by this exchange here dang so I'd like some clarification if possible. If the user above had said "the Chinese government", "The Communist Party of China" or simply "the party" then their comment would have been acceptable to you?
      - dang 7y ago
        It would still have been flamebait and against the site guidelines, but it wouldn't have been a slur.
    - tasogare 7y ago
      So, HN is officially a safe space? Strange, because I see all the time comments targeting (all) men or some particular ethnicities that aren’t moderated.
      - dang 7y ago
        No. It isn't possible for any large open internet forum to be a 'safe space', not that I know what that means.
- frequentnapper 7y ago
  what about bullies that bully bullies?
  - dang 7y ago
    It's a good question. The answer seems to me that they're equally at fault, first because they're the same as what they're attacking, but also because everyone who bullies feels that way. No one ever sees themselves as the aggressor, so if you make an exception for bullies of bullies, you end up with the status quo. The solution is to be aware of our own aggression and contain it. That's a long, slow process. I'm sure there is still aggression in what I wrote as well.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
- kerng 7y ago
  Isn't it common to refer to the "US" or "EU" when posters mean the administration and not the people? It's up to the interpretation of the reader probably. Curious to get perspective if readers indeed were offended by that comment from the poster? I'm normally not offended if someone says Americans do this or that.
  - meowface 7y ago
    I'm honestly not sure which meaning the poster intended. Either way, that sort of vagueness should probably be against the rules regardless of what they meant, to prevent ambiguous situations like these.
- verisimilitudes 7y ago
  Surely you see the irony in defending the Chinese government in a discussion about how the Chinese government routinely censors businesses and individuals. Does Ycombinator have any important Chinese business interests? That isn't bullying and surely you can see how it would be alarming to see you jump to defense in this way, threatening to ban a user over that benign and relevant comment, including criticizing everyone who has supported that user.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    Not wanting to take ANY sides in this discussion, but: > Does Ycombinator have any important Chinese business interests? Yes, https://blog.ycombinator.com/category/china/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/category/china/ That does not constitute as proof of moderator's bias, though.
  - dang 7y ago
    I haven't defended the Chinese government. YC was doing something in China for a while but I have no idea how important it was. Knowledge about it hasn't trickled into our corner. HN commenters seem to know more about it than we do. It's worth remembering that HN has editorial independence within YC: https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-hacker-news-to-give-it-full-editorial-independence/ https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-ha...
- milankragujevic 7y ago
  I have sent an email requesting clarification.
gadders 7y ago
There was the example of the UBS economist who commented on Swine Fever in China as well[1]: In a podcast episode, Mr Donovan discussed higher consumer prices in China and referred to an outbreak of African swine fever that has pushed up the cost of pork. He said: “Does it matter? It matters if you are a Chinese pig. It matters if you like eating pork in China. It does not really matter to the rest of the world.” [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ubs-chief-economist-paul-donovan-chinese-pig-comments-leave-a8959161.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ubs-chief-e...

dang 7y ago

> Any comment can trigger the Chinese Not only the Chinese, I assure you. Nationalistic flamebait like this is a bannable offense on HN—not to mention racial/national slurs. The users who upvoted and (later) vouched for this comment have abused this site by doing so. People routinely accuse us of being somehow pro-China or secret communists for moderating HN this way, but that's not true at all. We don't like bullies or mobs, and any time that dynamic springs up here—which unfortunately is all the time, this being the internet—we instinctively take the opposite side. What's surprising to me is how so many users, who I'm sure are decent people, engage in that kind of thing. I know it's largely a matter of their background but users with the opposite background also belong here, and deserve better. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21188577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21188577.

BubRoss 7y ago
Relax, he was clearly talking about the Chinese government, not Chinese people in general.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  I think we need to be really clear when we talk about these things. When we write “the Chinese” there is bound to be at least some subset of readers who see that and assume the write meant all Chinese. I don’t believe we can be certain of the writers intent until the writer makes it clear.
  - thrwy_01 7y ago
    Even if the writers clearly make this distinction, Chinese people, driven by Chinese propaganda, will often conflate the two. Indeed, Chinese people, even in a non political context will sometimes treat a comment about a single Chinese individual as a statement about all Chinese people.
    - dang 7y ago
      That's a separate issue. It's enough to clearly make this distinction oneself. What you're saying about "Chinese people" seems to me true of all people.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 7y ago
  Your bias predisposes you to read it that way. Were you responsible for a community with a wide spectrum of backgrounds and views, you'd quickly learn how unreliable that sense of "clearly" can be. HN users who are Chinese or of Chinese background have a right to come here and not see comments like that one, just the same as all HN users do. Edit: actually, once I read the context of the thread, I see your point. The parent comments were talking about the Chinese government, so it's reasonable to see that as having been in scope.
  - Teever 7y ago
    I'm a little confused by this exchange here dang so I'd like some clarification if possible. If the user above had said "the Chinese government", "The Communist Party of China" or simply "the party" then their comment would have been acceptable to you?
    - dang 7y ago
      It would still have been flamebait and against the site guidelines, but it wouldn't have been a slur.
  - tasogare 7y ago
    So, HN is officially a safe space? Strange, because I see all the time comments targeting (all) men or some particular ethnicities that aren’t moderated.
    - dang 7y ago
      No. It isn't possible for any large open internet forum to be a 'safe space', not that I know what that means.
frequentnapper 7y ago
what about bullies that bully bullies?
- dang 7y ago
  It's a good question. The answer seems to me that they're equally at fault, first because they're the same as what they're attacking, but also because everyone who bullies feels that way. No one ever sees themselves as the aggressor, so if you make an exception for bullies of bullies, you end up with the status quo. The solution is to be aware of our own aggression and contain it. That's a long, slow process. I'm sure there is still aggression in what I wrote as well.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
kerng 7y ago
Isn't it common to refer to the "US" or "EU" when posters mean the administration and not the people? It's up to the interpretation of the reader probably. Curious to get perspective if readers indeed were offended by that comment from the poster? I'm normally not offended if someone says Americans do this or that.
- meowface 7y ago
  I'm honestly not sure which meaning the poster intended. Either way, that sort of vagueness should probably be against the rules regardless of what they meant, to prevent ambiguous situations like these.
verisimilitudes 7y ago
Surely you see the irony in defending the Chinese government in a discussion about how the Chinese government routinely censors businesses and individuals. Does Ycombinator have any important Chinese business interests? That isn't bullying and surely you can see how it would be alarming to see you jump to defense in this way, threatening to ban a user over that benign and relevant comment, including criticizing everyone who has supported that user.
- milankragujevic 7y ago
  Not wanting to take ANY sides in this discussion, but: > Does Ycombinator have any important Chinese business interests? Yes, https://blog.ycombinator.com/category/china/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/category/china/ That does not constitute as proof of moderator's bias, though.
- dang 7y ago
  I haven't defended the Chinese government. YC was doing something in China for a while but I have no idea how important it was. Knowledge about it hasn't trickled into our corner. HN commenters seem to know more about it than we do. It's worth remembering that HN has editorial independence within YC: https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-hacker-news-to-give-it-full-editorial-independence/ https://venturebeat.com/2015/09/29/y-combinator-spins-out-ha...
milankragujevic 7y ago
I have sent an email requesting clarification.

gadders 7y ago

There was the example of the UBS economist who commented on Swine Fever in China as well[1]: In a podcast episode, Mr Donovan discussed higher consumer prices in China and referred to an outbreak of African swine fever that has pushed up the cost of pork. He said: “Does it matter? It matters if you are a Chinese pig. It matters if you like eating pork in China. It does not really matter to the rest of the world.” [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ubs-chief-economist-paul-donovan-chinese-pig-comments-leave-a8959161.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ubs-chief-e...