7 ms·

Curious, not trying to be a jerk. For something like ordering pizza (or even plane tickets), how much worse is calling to make the order as opposed to ordering

Curious, not trying to be a jerk. For something like ordering pizza (or even plane tickets), how much worse is calling to make the order as opposed to ordering online?

thomasedwards 7y ago
Obviously you should just be allowed to use the same services as everyone else. The web is accessible by design, so all sites that are not accessible are broken. The people that made them broke them. But, just for the sake of your curiosity, American Airlines charge $35 per ticket[1] when you call them to book. [1] https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/optional-service-fees.jsp#ticketing https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/optional-se...
- differentView 7y ago
  There's no way they don't wave that fee for blind customers.
  - pseudalopex 7y ago
    Domino's wouldn't give Robles the online price according to other articles.
    - chrisco255 7y ago
      Did they really go through an expensive legal process defending themselves in court rather than discount a large pizza by 10%?
      - berbec 7y ago
        Stupid franchisee. I kept a coupon active for years after the promo ended for one guy. He liked his $11.99 Veggie lovers. The coupon was hidden, but if you manually typed the code, it worked. I called him personally after he complained to corporate about the promo ending. I walked him through how to get the deal and he ordered weekly until I sold the store. The new owners deactivated all old promos. He had my cell phone number, so I got to find out, after I sold the store, thst he now orders Papa John's. Source: former multi-store, multi-Rolex winning Domino's franchisee.
        voltagex_ 7y ago
        How much did it cost you to keep providing the discounted price?
        berbec 7y ago
        It was $5 cheaper than regular menu price. But he ordered a literal 100 times a year with the coupon, tipped the delivery driver $5 every time and the order still was more profitable than $15 of chicken wings. Once the coupon left, he went to the competition. I used to spend about $1,000 a month in advertising just to get a few new customers to call. Keeping the ones you have is orders of magnitude cheaper, even if they complain about "cold pizza" once a month or so to get a free pie.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
        Not only that but Domino's "look forward to presenting our case at the trial court." Rather than working with community groups to help each other find a workable solution.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
mltony 7y ago
It depends. If I know I'll make an order only once, calling phone is probably easier. If that's a pizza, and say I have expectation that I might be ordering same pizza every week or every month, then ordering through website is easier, since you can save your credit card information there instead of repeating it on the phone every time. But even for one-time orders it is good to have an accessible site, since what I mentioned above - I would waste my time if the web site is not accessible. I assume if they had put a notice on their web site saying that it is not accessible for screenreaders - please call this number instead - that would be already a better solution rather than just an inaccessible web site.
- rgoldste 7y ago
  Thanks for the response.
onion2k 7y ago
Blind people are the same as everyone else, but with reduced vision. So when you ask "Why don't blind people just call?" you actually need to be asking "Why don't I just call?" Blind people will have the same reasons.
- drewmol 7y ago
  But maybe the commentor does just call? I usually do for pizza because pizza websites suck even for people with typical vision. IME.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  If they didn't have online only deals wouldn't providing a person to talk to meet their burden of enabling that user?
  - onion2k 7y ago
    Most people I know prefer to use an online system to avoid talking to people especially if there's a complex process or lots of information to enter. Blind people feel the same way. A phone based option is not "offering the same service" to blind people. If there was an online system that only worked with screen readers and the company said "sighted users can just call instead" I wouldn't use that company, and if they had the best price offering I'd be very annoyed. Making an inaccessible website is exactly the same.
yoloClin 7y ago
There's also no guarantee the service desk will be open or responsive when you want it.
shakna 7y ago
From another angle here, I occasionally have problems that make me use a screenreader. When the nerves that make my eyes work stop behaving correctly, it's also normal for the nerves in my throat to flip out so that speaking feels like breathing razor blades. Making a call isn't an option, but using a web browser still is, if they haven't gone out of their way to break all the ways a web browser is supposed to behave.
- disabled 7y ago
  Same. I have severe convergence insufficiency (that is highly variable and cannot be corrected, from a practical standpoint) due to a rare immune-mediated neurological disease. I either use Kurzweil 3000 (Windows|Mac|Browser) (paid)|JAWS (Windows) (paid)|Voice Dream Reader (iOS|Android)| VoiceOver (iOS) (free)| Talkback (free), depending on what I am doing and how my much my eyes are affecting me at that moment. I taught myself braille and I have a couple of refreshable braille displays, which I use, depending on how well my eyes are working. I can digitize printed material well, including STEM material, using a program called InftyReader (Windows). It is no fun, but you have to do what you have to do.
SilasX 7y ago
I’m not blind. But I would be furious if I had to call to place an order rather than submit a web form, merely because the site couldn’t be bothered to adhere to basic standards and instead used meth-addled “code artisans” practicing resume-driven development.
- chaboud 7y ago
  What standards should those sites adhere to? Are those standards sufficiently complete as to be referenced by regulatory agencies? If so, what's keeping us from adopting standards or at least recommendations for legal compliance? I think that Domino's assertion is that the current framework is too vague, but I regularly see the argument that there are standards to follow. So... What are those standards, and why aren't they law?
  - robin_reala 7y ago
    WCAG 2.1 Yes. Shrug. See above.
- disabled 7y ago
  Coming from somebody who is disabled: this is what life is like for a disabled person. There are many, many indignities that we encounter, even nearly constantly due to the way society ignores our needs. If you go and check out some disabled activists' Twitter accounts, you may be shocked at the anger and the lack of "decency". But, put yourself in their shoes, and realize that they have been forced to deal with systematic and near-constant indignities, and many of them have been forced to fight for their mere existence as human beings.
  - SilasX 7y ago
    I agree with such activists. It's stupid to have to make a phone call when a website should be perfectly capable for this role. While I don't claim to know what such disabilities are like, I feel I have experienced analogous frustrations. Back when Linux on the desktop and Firefox were catching on, I remember it being a crapshoot about whether critical sites (like banks and tax filing) would play nice with non-IE browsers, and I had to have a PC/Windows/IE setup as a fallback. Same issue: the use the meth-addled design that breaks any non-mainstream clients. I also use Tridactyl (and before it, Vimium and pentadactyl), an extension that lets you click links from the keyboard, which is a huge UI improvement and (along with other keyboard input methods) speeds up web browsing significantly. It's generally good at detecting links, but the same sloppy design and over-clever features make clickable elements undetectable and frustrate this enhancement. And for the kicker ... often times, these improvements "for the disabled" end up benefiting everyone else even more, but designers/buisdev people don't get it! See my previous comment about the Curb Cut Effect [1]. The web was designed with screen readers in mind. It is a serious regression to find major sites telling blind users to call in. This isn't the 60s. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195054

Curious, not trying to be a jerk. For something like ordering pizza (or even plane tickets), how much worse is calling to make the order as opposed to ordering online?

thomasedwards 7y ago

Obviously you should just be allowed to use the same services as everyone else. The web is accessible by design, so all sites that are not accessible are broken. The people that made them broke them. But, just for the sake of your curiosity, American Airlines charge $35 per ticket[1] when you call them to book. [1] https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/optional-service-fees.jsp#ticketing https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/optional-se...

differentView 7y ago
There's no way they don't wave that fee for blind customers.
- pseudalopex 7y ago
  Domino's wouldn't give Robles the online price according to other articles.
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    Did they really go through an expensive legal process defending themselves in court rather than discount a large pizza by 10%?
    - berbec 7y ago
      Stupid franchisee. I kept a coupon active for years after the promo ended for one guy. He liked his $11.99 Veggie lovers. The coupon was hidden, but if you manually typed the code, it worked. I called him personally after he complained to corporate about the promo ending. I walked him through how to get the deal and he ordered weekly until I sold the store. The new owners deactivated all old promos. He had my cell phone number, so I got to find out, after I sold the store, thst he now orders Papa John's. Source: former multi-store, multi-Rolex winning Domino's franchisee.
      - voltagex_ 7y ago
        How much did it cost you to keep providing the discounted price?
        berbec 7y ago
        It was $5 cheaper than regular menu price. But he ordered a literal 100 times a year with the coupon, tipped the delivery driver $5 every time and the order still was more profitable than $15 of chicken wings. Once the coupon left, he went to the competition. I used to spend about $1,000 a month in advertising just to get a few new customers to call. Keeping the ones you have is orders of magnitude cheaper, even if they complain about "cold pizza" once a month or so to get a free pie.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      Not only that but Domino's "look forward to presenting our case at the trial court." Rather than working with community groups to help each other find a workable solution.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

mltony 7y ago

It depends. If I know I'll make an order only once, calling phone is probably easier. If that's a pizza, and say I have expectation that I might be ordering same pizza every week or every month, then ordering through website is easier, since you can save your credit card information there instead of repeating it on the phone every time. But even for one-time orders it is good to have an accessible site, since what I mentioned above - I would waste my time if the web site is not accessible. I assume if they had put a notice on their web site saying that it is not accessible for screenreaders - please call this number instead - that would be already a better solution rather than just an inaccessible web site.

rgoldste 7y ago
Thanks for the response.

onion2k 7y ago

Blind people are the same as everyone else, but with reduced vision. So when you ask "Why don't blind people just call?" you actually need to be asking "Why don't I just call?" Blind people will have the same reasons.

drewmol 7y ago
But maybe the commentor does just call? I usually do for pizza because pizza websites suck even for people with typical vision. IME.
michaelmrose 7y ago
If they didn't have online only deals wouldn't providing a person to talk to meet their burden of enabling that user?
- onion2k 7y ago
  Most people I know prefer to use an online system to avoid talking to people especially if there's a complex process or lots of information to enter. Blind people feel the same way. A phone based option is not "offering the same service" to blind people. If there was an online system that only worked with screen readers and the company said "sighted users can just call instead" I wouldn't use that company, and if they had the best price offering I'd be very annoyed. Making an inaccessible website is exactly the same.

yoloClin 7y ago

There's also no guarantee the service desk will be open or responsive when you want it.

shakna 7y ago

From another angle here, I occasionally have problems that make me use a screenreader. When the nerves that make my eyes work stop behaving correctly, it's also normal for the nerves in my throat to flip out so that speaking feels like breathing razor blades. Making a call isn't an option, but using a web browser still is, if they haven't gone out of their way to break all the ways a web browser is supposed to behave.

disabled 7y ago
Same. I have severe convergence insufficiency (that is highly variable and cannot be corrected, from a practical standpoint) due to a rare immune-mediated neurological disease. I either use Kurzweil 3000 (Windows|Mac|Browser) (paid)|JAWS (Windows) (paid)|Voice Dream Reader (iOS|Android)| VoiceOver (iOS) (free)| Talkback (free), depending on what I am doing and how my much my eyes are affecting me at that moment. I taught myself braille and I have a couple of refreshable braille displays, which I use, depending on how well my eyes are working. I can digitize printed material well, including STEM material, using a program called InftyReader (Windows). It is no fun, but you have to do what you have to do.

SilasX 7y ago

I’m not blind. But I would be furious if I had to call to place an order rather than submit a web form, merely because the site couldn’t be bothered to adhere to basic standards and instead used meth-addled “code artisans” practicing resume-driven development.

chaboud 7y ago
What standards should those sites adhere to? Are those standards sufficiently complete as to be referenced by regulatory agencies? If so, what's keeping us from adopting standards or at least recommendations for legal compliance? I think that Domino's assertion is that the current framework is too vague, but I regularly see the argument that there are standards to follow. So... What are those standards, and why aren't they law?
- robin_reala 7y ago
  WCAG 2.1 Yes. Shrug. See above.
disabled 7y ago
Coming from somebody who is disabled: this is what life is like for a disabled person. There are many, many indignities that we encounter, even nearly constantly due to the way society ignores our needs. If you go and check out some disabled activists' Twitter accounts, you may be shocked at the anger and the lack of "decency". But, put yourself in their shoes, and realize that they have been forced to deal with systematic and near-constant indignities, and many of them have been forced to fight for their mere existence as human beings.
- SilasX 7y ago
  I agree with such activists. It's stupid to have to make a phone call when a website should be perfectly capable for this role. While I don't claim to know what such disabilities are like, I feel I have experienced analogous frustrations. Back when Linux on the desktop and Firefox were catching on, I remember it being a crapshoot about whether critical sites (like banks and tax filing) would play nice with non-IE browsers, and I had to have a PC/Windows/IE setup as a fallback. Same issue: the use the meth-addled design that breaks any non-mainstream clients. I also use Tridactyl (and before it, Vimium and pentadactyl), an extension that lets you click links from the keyboard, which is a huge UI improvement and (along with other keyboard input methods) speeds up web browsing significantly. It's generally good at detecting links, but the same sloppy design and over-clever features make clickable elements undetectable and frustrate this enhancement. And for the kicker ... often times, these improvements "for the disabled" end up benefiting everyone else even more, but designers/buisdev people don't get it! See my previous comment about the Curb Cut Effect [1]. The web was designed with screen readers in mind. It is a serious regression to find major sites telling blind users to call in. This isn't the 60s. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195054