4 ms·

It’s a myth that reasonable accommodations are too much of a burden for a small business to handle. Having a menu made into Braille for example isn’t going to c

by tibbon 7y ago

It’s a myth that reasonable accommodations are too much of a burden for a small business to handle. Having a menu made into Braille for example isn’t going to cost a ton. On the upside, they would also now have business available that they didn’t have in the past.

chrisco255 7y ago
I wonder why Domino's having a phone number to call in orders isn't enough of an accommodation in this case?
- Mathnerd314 7y ago
  It probably is sufficient; the issue here was Domino's said the website wasn't covered by the ADA at all. And there might be trouble with some of Domino's coupons being online-only.
- Pinckney 7y ago
  My understanding, from a quick 5 minute skim, is that it may be. It's being sent back to the district court for reconsideration. Basically what seems to have happened is this: 1. Robles sued Dominoes alleging their website violated the ADA. 2. The district court dismissed the suit, saying the DOJ needs to provide guidance on the standards that websites must meet, if the court is to hold them to the ADA. They don't examine the question of the phone. 3. The appeals court steps in and says that no, the district court was wrong to dismiss it for that reasons, and sends it back to the district court. 4. Dominoes appeals to SCOTUS, saying "help, the appeals court got it wrong, please step in!" SCOTUS declines to get involved, so the case will go back to the district court, which may still find that the phone access provided is an adequate accommodation.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- mattl 7y ago
  How do you know what’s for sale at Domino’s?
  - belltaco 7y ago
    You can call them and ask?
    - mwcampbell 7y ago
      How would you like it if you couldn't thoroughly peruse a restaurant menu and coupons at your own pace, but instead had to call a customer service rep and ask them to talk you through it, knowing that they need to get your order completed and get you off the phone as fast as possible? Putting these things online is really ideal for everyone, as long as the web developer doesn't screw up accessibility.
- couchand 7y ago
  From footnote 4: > However, the district court did not reach whether a genuine issue of material fact existed as to the telephone hotline’s compliance with the ADA, including whether the hotline guaranteed full and equal enjoyment and "protect[ed] the privacy and independence of the individual with a disability." ... We believe that the mere presence of the phone number, without discovery on its effectiveness, is insufficient to grant summary judgment in favor of Domino’s.
mikeg8 7y ago
After a few years in web development I began working for my dad’s business - we sell commercial doors and hardware and do a lot of work in SF. ADA requirements now force many restaurant to add an auto-door operator (push button that opens door) to their main entry. The total cost can be in the range of $10-15k for hardware, electrical work, union labor etc. this absolutely is a burden that some owners really struggle to afford so I’d argue the “myth” is very much alive. And I’m one of the people making money off this transaction. I have mixed feelings about it.
StanislavPetrov 7y ago
The issue is deciding what "reasonable" means in this context, which is the crux of this whole debate. This lawsuit allows blind people to due retailers for their websites, what if someone was both blind and deaf? There are a range of disabilities that put burdens on businesses from small to massive depending what disability we are talking about and what sort of services are being offered by the business.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
Most likely, a large part of it is the extra burden involved in trying to understand what you actually need to do in order to be in compliance -- what's actually required and what's not. I'm handicapped and also a freelancer and I have six years of college and I worked for a Fortune 500 company at one time. I feel I'm better positioned than a lot of individuals to figure out what I need to do without an accountant and a legal team and yadda, but I have my moments when I would like to go hide under a bed and cry and try to figure out how to kill myself because our highly regulated world sometimes seems like it is actively designed to make it impossible for people to make their lives work (without being part of a megacorp -- and what if that doesn't work for you?).
- Mirioron 7y ago
  >because our highly regulated world sometimes seems like it is actively designed to make it impossible for people to make their lives work (without being part of a megacorp -- and what if that doesn't work for you?). I thought that everybody being part of megacorps was the intended outcome of a lot of regulations. Isn't that why there are no clear guidelines and limits to a lot of regulation? It's particularly ironic that the government themselves can't even seem to keep up with a lot of regulations (reminds me of GDPR and how the EU commission's websites didn't follow them).
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    ... intended outcome...Isn't that why there are no clear guidelines and limits to a lot of regulation? "Ninety percent of everything is crap." "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." People tend to make rules that reflect the kind of environment that is typical for them. Federal government is large, bureaucratic, etc. It's no surprise that rules coming out of it implicitly assume that everyone works in a similar environment. Another contributing problem is that people need to justify their paycheck. Writing more rules is how politicians look productive. I don't know what the solution is. But assuming malice rather than trying to understand the problem space in more neutral terms is not a constructive path forward.

by tibbon 7y ago

chrisco255 7y ago

I wonder why Domino's having a phone number to call in orders isn't enough of an accommodation in this case?

Mathnerd314 7y ago
It probably is sufficient; the issue here was Domino's said the website wasn't covered by the ADA at all. And there might be trouble with some of Domino's coupons being online-only.
Pinckney 7y ago
My understanding, from a quick 5 minute skim, is that it may be. It's being sent back to the district court for reconsideration. Basically what seems to have happened is this: 1. Robles sued Dominoes alleging their website violated the ADA. 2. The district court dismissed the suit, saying the DOJ needs to provide guidance on the standards that websites must meet, if the court is to hold them to the ADA. They don't examine the question of the phone. 3. The appeals court steps in and says that no, the district court was wrong to dismiss it for that reasons, and sends it back to the district court. 4. Dominoes appeals to SCOTUS, saying "help, the appeals court got it wrong, please step in!" SCOTUS declines to get involved, so the case will go back to the district court, which may still find that the phone access provided is an adequate accommodation.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
mattl 7y ago
How do you know what’s for sale at Domino’s?
- belltaco 7y ago
  You can call them and ask?
  - mwcampbell 7y ago
    How would you like it if you couldn't thoroughly peruse a restaurant menu and coupons at your own pace, but instead had to call a customer service rep and ask them to talk you through it, knowing that they need to get your order completed and get you off the phone as fast as possible? Putting these things online is really ideal for everyone, as long as the web developer doesn't screw up accessibility.
couchand 7y ago
From footnote 4: > However, the district court did not reach whether a genuine issue of material fact existed as to the telephone hotline’s compliance with the ADA, including whether the hotline guaranteed full and equal enjoyment and "protect[ed] the privacy and independence of the individual with a disability." ... We believe that the mere presence of the phone number, without discovery on its effectiveness, is insufficient to grant summary judgment in favor of Domino’s.

mikeg8 7y ago

After a few years in web development I began working for my dad’s business - we sell commercial doors and hardware and do a lot of work in SF. ADA requirements now force many restaurant to add an auto-door operator (push button that opens door) to their main entry. The total cost can be in the range of $10-15k for hardware, electrical work, union labor etc. this absolutely is a burden that some owners really struggle to afford so I’d argue the “myth” is very much alive. And I’m one of the people making money off this transaction. I have mixed feelings about it.

StanislavPetrov 7y ago

The issue is deciding what "reasonable" means in this context, which is the crux of this whole debate. This lawsuit allows blind people to due retailers for their websites, what if someone was both blind and deaf? There are a range of disabilities that put burdens on businesses from small to massive depending what disability we are talking about and what sort of services are being offered by the business.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Most likely, a large part of it is the extra burden involved in trying to understand what you actually need to do in order to be in compliance -- what's actually required and what's not. I'm handicapped and also a freelancer and I have six years of college and I worked for a Fortune 500 company at one time. I feel I'm better positioned than a lot of individuals to figure out what I need to do without an accountant and a legal team and yadda, but I have my moments when I would like to go hide under a bed and cry and try to figure out how to kill myself because our highly regulated world sometimes seems like it is actively designed to make it impossible for people to make their lives work (without being part of a megacorp -- and what if that doesn't work for you?).

Mirioron 7y ago
>because our highly regulated world sometimes seems like it is actively designed to make it impossible for people to make their lives work (without being part of a megacorp -- and what if that doesn't work for you?). I thought that everybody being part of megacorps was the intended outcome of a lot of regulations. Isn't that why there are no clear guidelines and limits to a lot of regulation? It's particularly ironic that the government themselves can't even seem to keep up with a lot of regulations (reminds me of GDPR and how the EU commission's websites didn't follow them).
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  ... intended outcome...Isn't that why there are no clear guidelines and limits to a lot of regulation? "Ninety percent of everything is crap." "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." People tend to make rules that reflect the kind of environment that is typical for them. Federal government is large, bureaucratic, etc. It's no surprise that rules coming out of it implicitly assume that everyone works in a similar environment. Another contributing problem is that people need to justify their paycheck. Writing more rules is how politicians look productive. I don't know what the solution is. But assuming malice rather than trying to understand the problem space in more neutral terms is not a constructive path forward.