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I think many drivers have inaccurate views of how good the various alternatives are. As a cyclist, I've had drivers tell me over the years that going from A to

I think many drivers have inaccurate views of how good the various alternatives are. As a cyclist, I've had drivers tell me over the years that going from A to B is practically impossible on a bike, but I often find it perfectly reasonable. (A and B are random locations picked by the driver I'm speaking with, e.g., often drivers say that getting groceries on a bike is impossible.) In my experience, most drivers never give cycling a fair chance.

xyzzyz 7y ago
Many people simply don't like physical activity. Of course, it would probably improve their health should they chose bicycle instead, but they aren't stupid or oblivious choosing to drive, nor is cycling objectively better. Some (in fact, probably a good majority of Americans) value less exertion and more convenience over health benefits or cash price. Maybe it would be better if they didn't, but compare it e.g. with reading books vs. watching TV. It might be better for society if people read more and watch TV less, but it would be silly to suggest that most TV watchers never give novels a fair chance, or express incredulity that some people are so oblivious that they prefer to watch TV instead of reading Dostoyevski. In short, people have differing preferences, and your model of reality should account for that.
- btrettel 7y ago
  I acknowledge that people's preferences vary. I don't recommend cycling to everyone. But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Fact is, you'll get in better shape, and what was once far too hard becomes easy. Similarly, many people seem absolutely opposed to sweating at all and that seems to be what stops them from cycling. But I actually don't know a single transportation cyclist who takes a shower after their commute. Yes, they do sweat, but they find the amount of sweating acceptable. There seems to be psychological research about this phenomena, e.g., here's a random article I found via Google: https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how?
  - ip26 7y ago
    I'm a bicycle commuter. It can get above 100F here and the desert sun is brutal. Before I rode an ebike, I definitely needed a shower in the summer.
    - btrettel 7y ago
      In Austin, TX, I rarely have found that I truly need to take a shower, even when it's over 100 F. When I was less experienced this was more of a problem but now I reduce my speed, take a shorter route if possible, and change to a wet t-shirt and shorts that are different from what I normally wear. I used to also wear a wet skull cap but I've been meaning to buy a new one. It helps that my commute is only about 5 to 10 minutes each way, but I'd keep cycling without taking a shower even if it was longer. Anyhow, perhaps not all cyclists agree about the the necessity of showers. My point was that this is an issue where one's opinions may change.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Of course, I do agree with it. I can also confirm that going to gym regularly and getting jacked is not all that hard either. Nevertheless, median American is in terrible physical condition, obesity is rampant etc. Point is, there's quite apparently a wide chasm between knowing things, and actually restructuring your life according to those ideas: this requires committment, effort, planning, foresight etc. We gave up on expecting those things from average person in other areas (e.g. consider recent idea of "food deserts", which implicitly assumes that a person affected by those is unable to have enough foresight to make weekly or biweekly travels to grocery store, something our ancestors 100 years ago were perfectly capable of), so I find strange the incredulity of cycling proponents when it comes to understanding people shunning bicycles. Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. There's no "gotcha". It's simply extremely convenient to do grocery shopping with a car compared to a bicycle, and adding cargo capacity only alleviates some of the inconvenience. The only reason people bring up groceries, or ferrying kids to school, or all the other excuses you've certainly heard fair share off is that when you say "car is simply more convenient to me", you're met with incredulity, and are being explained to, like the grand parent poster, that driving actually makes thing worse for you. You need to keep explaining the exact ways in which alternative ways are less convenient (less cargo capacity, more physical exertion required, more time spent on commuting with public transit etc), and the response is usually either minimizing the cost, or moralizing about health benefits or externalities. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Indeed, "it's simply more convenient" is not the acceptable response here, you need to ask experts to tell you that you're wrong. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how? I don't think I quoted anyone calling drivers that, but the grandparent comment certainly implied that people driving in Manhattan are making choice that's simply wrong for them, which implies that they are either stupid, or, more charitably, oblivious.

xyzzyz 7y ago

Many people simply don't like physical activity. Of course, it would probably improve their health should they chose bicycle instead, but they aren't stupid or oblivious choosing to drive, nor is cycling objectively better. Some (in fact, probably a good majority of Americans) value less exertion and more convenience over health benefits or cash price. Maybe it would be better if they didn't, but compare it e.g. with reading books vs. watching TV. It might be better for society if people read more and watch TV less, but it would be silly to suggest that most TV watchers never give novels a fair chance, or express incredulity that some people are so oblivious that they prefer to watch TV instead of reading Dostoyevski. In short, people have differing preferences, and your model of reality should account for that.

btrettel 7y ago
I acknowledge that people's preferences vary. I don't recommend cycling to everyone. But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Fact is, you'll get in better shape, and what was once far too hard becomes easy. Similarly, many people seem absolutely opposed to sweating at all and that seems to be what stops them from cycling. But I actually don't know a single transportation cyclist who takes a shower after their commute. Yes, they do sweat, but they find the amount of sweating acceptable. There seems to be psychological research about this phenomena, e.g., here's a random article I found via Google: https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how?
- ip26 7y ago
  I'm a bicycle commuter. It can get above 100F here and the desert sun is brutal. Before I rode an ebike, I definitely needed a shower in the summer.
  - btrettel 7y ago
    In Austin, TX, I rarely have found that I truly need to take a shower, even when it's over 100 F. When I was less experienced this was more of a problem but now I reduce my speed, take a shorter route if possible, and change to a wet t-shirt and shorts that are different from what I normally wear. I used to also wear a wet skull cap but I've been meaning to buy a new one. It helps that my commute is only about 5 to 10 minutes each way, but I'd keep cycling without taking a shower even if it was longer. Anyhow, perhaps not all cyclists agree about the the necessity of showers. My point was that this is an issue where one's opinions may change.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Of course, I do agree with it. I can also confirm that going to gym regularly and getting jacked is not all that hard either. Nevertheless, median American is in terrible physical condition, obesity is rampant etc. Point is, there's quite apparently a wide chasm between knowing things, and actually restructuring your life according to those ideas: this requires committment, effort, planning, foresight etc. We gave up on expecting those things from average person in other areas (e.g. consider recent idea of "food deserts", which implicitly assumes that a person affected by those is unable to have enough foresight to make weekly or biweekly travels to grocery store, something our ancestors 100 years ago were perfectly capable of), so I find strange the incredulity of cycling proponents when it comes to understanding people shunning bicycles. Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. There's no "gotcha". It's simply extremely convenient to do grocery shopping with a car compared to a bicycle, and adding cargo capacity only alleviates some of the inconvenience. The only reason people bring up groceries, or ferrying kids to school, or all the other excuses you've certainly heard fair share off is that when you say "car is simply more convenient to me", you're met with incredulity, and are being explained to, like the grand parent poster, that driving actually makes thing worse for you. You need to keep explaining the exact ways in which alternative ways are less convenient (less cargo capacity, more physical exertion required, more time spent on commuting with public transit etc), and the response is usually either minimizing the cost, or moralizing about health benefits or externalities. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Indeed, "it's simply more convenient" is not the acceptable response here, you need to ask experts to tell you that you're wrong. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how? I don't think I quoted anyone calling drivers that, but the grandparent comment certainly implied that people driving in Manhattan are making choice that's simply wrong for them, which implies that they are either stupid, or, more charitably, oblivious.