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Plenty of people in major cities across the globe are fighting for free mass transit. It's not that unreasonable at all when you consider that, in many cities,

Plenty of people in major cities across the globe are fighting for free mass transit. It's not that unreasonable at all when you consider that, in many cities, the per-trip subsidy is already higher than the fare price anyway. And if you reverse the situation, and imagine a city with free public transit that is then considering adding a fare to it, said fare would be extremely regressive and would hit the worst off the hardest.

zucker42 7y ago
Most free fare experiments have been failures from what I've seen. City Beautiful has a video about it. Free fare can attract people who are less desirable to ride with, even potentially decreasing ridership.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Can you provide a link? What major cities have tried free fares? I'm also really curious to know what "less desirable" means, exactly.
  - Afton 7y ago
    Less desirable probably means "people who are homeless and/or mentally ill, who use the free-bus ride as a heated place to hang out all day".
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - zucker42 7y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxVYborUcU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxVYborUcU was the video I was referencing. It was far more positive than I remember. https://ftp.fdot.gov/file/d/FTP/FDOT%20LTS/CO/research/Completed_Proj/Summary_PTO/FDOT_BC137_38_FF_rpt.pdf https://ftp.fdot.gov/file/d/FTP/FDOT%20LTS/CO/research/Compl... is the research I remember that was more critical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport is also good. Less desirable means people that other riders are less likely to want to ride with. From the paper above: > In the Austin, Texas fare-free demonstration, both anecdotal and official data suggest that problem riders increased substantially and drove away other riders. Joy-riding youth and inebriated adults, as well as vagrants, increased. In addition, in both the Mercer Metro and the Austin, Texas experiences, problem riders actually drove away many of the regular bus commuters. In none of the experiments did the increase in transit ridership include automobile commuters enticed by the fare-free service (Connor, 1979; Kounes, 1993; People for Modern Transit Technical Committee, 2001).
- baroffoos 7y ago
  A nice middle ground would be free public transport for people under 18 and $1 for adults. $1 a trip is very little for almost everyone but it still discourages randomly taking the bus just for fun.
  - blaser-waffle 7y ago
    People under 18 would be in the less desirable crowd that the parent referred to. Crying babies and out of control teenagers are 50% of why I avoid public transit (the other two being drunks/addicts and/or the homeless).
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      On the other hand, car centric city design has totally locked out anyone under 18 from going anywhere so we have the greatest responsibility to make sure they have access to public transport.
taffer 7y ago
> Plenty of people in major cities across the globe are fighting for free mass transit. I never understood why. This study from Talinn, Estonia[1] shows that the overall impact on passenger numbers was very small (+1.2% increase) and that most of it is due to a decrease in pedestrian traffic and bicycle use. > And if you reverse the situation, and imagine a city with free public transit that is then considering adding a fare to it, said fare would be extremely regressive and would hit the worst off the hardest. Personally, I believe that cash transfers are more ethical and less paternalistic than in-kind benefits, but if you want, you can still give poor people a high discount on public transport or simply limit free public transport to poor people. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oded_Cats/publication/266262692_Public_Transport_Pricing_Policy_-_Empirical_Evidence_from_a_Fare-Free_Scheme_in_Tallinn_Estonia/links/5ba2672f92851ca9ed15bc0c/Public-Transport-Pricing-Policy-Empirical-Evidence-from-a-Fare-Free-Scheme-in-Tallinn-Estonia.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oded_Cats/publication/2...

zucker42 7y ago

Most free fare experiments have been failures from what I've seen. City Beautiful has a video about it. Free fare can attract people who are less desirable to ride with, even potentially decreasing ridership.

CydeWeys 7y ago
Can you provide a link? What major cities have tried free fares? I'm also really curious to know what "less desirable" means, exactly.
- Afton 7y ago
  Less desirable probably means "people who are homeless and/or mentally ill, who use the free-bus ride as a heated place to hang out all day".
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- zucker42 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxVYborUcU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxVYborUcU was the video I was referencing. It was far more positive than I remember. https://ftp.fdot.gov/file/d/FTP/FDOT%20LTS/CO/research/Completed_Proj/Summary_PTO/FDOT_BC137_38_FF_rpt.pdf https://ftp.fdot.gov/file/d/FTP/FDOT%20LTS/CO/research/Compl... is the research I remember that was more critical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport is also good. Less desirable means people that other riders are less likely to want to ride with. From the paper above: > In the Austin, Texas fare-free demonstration, both anecdotal and official data suggest that problem riders increased substantially and drove away other riders. Joy-riding youth and inebriated adults, as well as vagrants, increased. In addition, in both the Mercer Metro and the Austin, Texas experiences, problem riders actually drove away many of the regular bus commuters. In none of the experiments did the increase in transit ridership include automobile commuters enticed by the fare-free service (Connor, 1979; Kounes, 1993; People for Modern Transit Technical Committee, 2001).
baroffoos 7y ago
A nice middle ground would be free public transport for people under 18 and $1 for adults. $1 a trip is very little for almost everyone but it still discourages randomly taking the bus just for fun.
- blaser-waffle 7y ago
  People under 18 would be in the less desirable crowd that the parent referred to. Crying babies and out of control teenagers are 50% of why I avoid public transit (the other two being drunks/addicts and/or the homeless).
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    On the other hand, car centric city design has totally locked out anyone under 18 from going anywhere so we have the greatest responsibility to make sure they have access to public transport.

taffer 7y ago

> Plenty of people in major cities across the globe are fighting for free mass transit. I never understood why. This study from Talinn, Estonia[1] shows that the overall impact on passenger numbers was very small (+1.2% increase) and that most of it is due to a decrease in pedestrian traffic and bicycle use. > And if you reverse the situation, and imagine a city with free public transit that is then considering adding a fare to it, said fare would be extremely regressive and would hit the worst off the hardest. Personally, I believe that cash transfers are more ethical and less paternalistic than in-kind benefits, but if you want, you can still give poor people a high discount on public transport or simply limit free public transport to poor people. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oded_Cats/publication/266262692_Public_Transport_Pricing_Policy_-_Empirical_Evidence_from_a_Fare-Free_Scheme_in_Tallinn_Estonia/links/5ba2672f92851ca9ed15bc0c/Public-Transport-Pricing-Policy-Empirical-Evidence-from-a-Fare-Free-Scheme-in-Tallinn-Estonia.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oded_Cats/publication/2...