4 ms·

I agree with most of your points. However, these articles are mostly focused on removing cars from the ultra high-density areas where they are ineffective. Goin

I agree with most of your points. However, these articles are mostly focused on removing cars from the ultra high-density areas where they are ineffective. Going from NYC to the Adirondacks for a backpacking trip? Can't beat a car. Going from the Upper West Side to Wall Street? Please don't drive, it makes everything worse for everyone, including yourself. My personal opinion is that the HN crowd likes looking at transit in large cities as a complex optimization problem. There are a ton of variables to play with, and we're currently so far away from anything approaching optimum. Cars downtown give me the same feeling as a 10MB web site that has two paragraphs of content. We can do better than this.

xyzzyz 7y ago
Please don't drive, it makes everything worse for everyone, including yourself. This assumes that people are simply so oblivious that they aren't aware of driving being worse for them. This can happen occasionally, but let me assure you that whenever you see people stuck in traffic, for overwhelming majority of them, being stuck in traffic is preferrable to alternatives. It might not be so to you, but they aren't you. Don't assume stupidity, but rather try to understand why people would rather be stuck in traffic driving a single occupant vehicle than take a public bus. This way, you might learn things that could lead to improving public transit and making them more attractive to all.
- maxaf 7y ago
  I wish I could upvote you twice! I’m one of the minority of Manhattan residents who use a private car instead of transit. My schedule and routes are unusual enough that transit doesn’t serve me. Even when doing a more traditional UWS->Financial District commute, I often prefer to drive because of the knock-on benefits: I can shop at Eataly and bring home some goodies for the family; I can make stops at a few stores along the way that would otherwise be too far from the standard subway commute route. I don’t enjoy sitting in traffic, but it’s so much easier for me than any other alternative. I pick my travel times to minimize delays for myself (and presumably others) and I’m tired of being labeled an entitled snob, an idiot, or a murderer of cyclists.
  - badfrog 7y ago
    > I can make stops at a few stores along the way that would otherwise be too far from the standard subway commute route. Where are you stopping between UWS and FiDi that has convenient parking?
    - maxaf 7y ago
      There are metered parking zones all over Manhattan. Many are commercial-only during the day, but revert to regular meters after a certain hour. There are copious bus lanes on many major thoroughfares, which are legal to park in outside of peak commuting hours. In some areas the street sweeper dance starts the evening before, leaving many spots unoccupied after drivers have absconded in search of parking spaces that won’t see a sweeper while the drivers are at work the next day. I use all of these hacks and more to make it possible to zip around town in a personal car.
      - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
        I attended a Seder on upper Park Ave, Manhattan, which had 3 people who used cars, including the rabbi who lives in Manhattan. One party was a visitor from out of town. The streets do look like rivers of cabs but I spot private cars and not all of those have ride share stickers.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    Indeed. I'm a west coast resident, and I've only visited NYC a handful of times, but last time I was there with my family, I rode cabs about as much as subway: in my limited experience, subway in Manhattan works well if you're moving on north-south axis, but not so well on east-west axis. When you're going east-west in Manhattan, you have to spend 15-20 minutes walking more often than not, which is usually not that bad, unless it's 95 degrees outside, and your children are miserable: spending 20 minutes in air conditioned cab then is much preferrable to spending 15 minutes walking in that circumstance. In that scenario, cabs also win often with subway, especially on short routes, since you can move 4 people with a single cab fare, while you have to pay 4 times the fare when you take the subway.
- btrettel 7y ago
  I think many drivers have inaccurate views of how good the various alternatives are. As a cyclist, I've had drivers tell me over the years that going from A to B is practically impossible on a bike, but I often find it perfectly reasonable. (A and B are random locations picked by the driver I'm speaking with, e.g., often drivers say that getting groceries on a bike is impossible.) In my experience, most drivers never give cycling a fair chance.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    Many people simply don't like physical activity. Of course, it would probably improve their health should they chose bicycle instead, but they aren't stupid or oblivious choosing to drive, nor is cycling objectively better. Some (in fact, probably a good majority of Americans) value less exertion and more convenience over health benefits or cash price. Maybe it would be better if they didn't, but compare it e.g. with reading books vs. watching TV. It might be better for society if people read more and watch TV less, but it would be silly to suggest that most TV watchers never give novels a fair chance, or express incredulity that some people are so oblivious that they prefer to watch TV instead of reading Dostoyevski. In short, people have differing preferences, and your model of reality should account for that.
    - btrettel 7y ago
      I acknowledge that people's preferences vary. I don't recommend cycling to everyone. But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Fact is, you'll get in better shape, and what was once far too hard becomes easy. Similarly, many people seem absolutely opposed to sweating at all and that seems to be what stops them from cycling. But I actually don't know a single transportation cyclist who takes a shower after their commute. Yes, they do sweat, but they find the amount of sweating acceptable. There seems to be psychological research about this phenomena, e.g., here's a random article I found via Google: https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how?
saalweachter 7y ago
> Going from NYC to the Adirondacks for a backpacking trip? Can't beat a car. Incidentally: https://www.adirondack.net/directions/getting-here-by-train/ https://www.adirondack.net/directions/getting-here-by-train/
- badfrog 7y ago
  > Every day, one train leaves New York City, travels through the Adirondacks, and ends up in Montreal. Another train follows the opposite route daily. One train per day isn't exactly convenient. And once you get off the train, you still somehow need to get to the trail head.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    For what it's worth, there's a super popular hiking spot 1.5 hours outside of NYC called Breakneck Ridge that is only served by a few MetroNorth trains per day (and only on weekends and holidays). And yet when I went there were MANY people doing it. That trailhead is close to the train station which is why it's so popular, but if it weren't, there's always Lyft/Uber. These are city-dwellers who don't own cars doing these hikes, so "driving your own car" isn't even an option. Renting a car for the day/weekend is, but that's much more expensive than round-trip train tickets.
    - badfrog 7y ago
      Yeah, it's great that these options exist. I've taken Metro North to hike on Mount Beacon before. But I still wouldn't say it's more convenient than a car.
      - CydeWeys 7y ago
        It's not more convenient than a car that one day of the month, but not having a car is definitely more convenient the other 30 days of the month. Owning a car in NYC is super inconvenient and expensive. Although I will say, the drive isn't that much faster than the train ride. And driving is dead time, whereas train riding time isn't.

xyzzyz 7y ago

Please don't drive, it makes everything worse for everyone, including yourself. This assumes that people are simply so oblivious that they aren't aware of driving being worse for them. This can happen occasionally, but let me assure you that whenever you see people stuck in traffic, for overwhelming majority of them, being stuck in traffic is preferrable to alternatives. It might not be so to you, but they aren't you. Don't assume stupidity, but rather try to understand why people would rather be stuck in traffic driving a single occupant vehicle than take a public bus. This way, you might learn things that could lead to improving public transit and making them more attractive to all.

maxaf 7y ago
I wish I could upvote you twice! I’m one of the minority of Manhattan residents who use a private car instead of transit. My schedule and routes are unusual enough that transit doesn’t serve me. Even when doing a more traditional UWS->Financial District commute, I often prefer to drive because of the knock-on benefits: I can shop at Eataly and bring home some goodies for the family; I can make stops at a few stores along the way that would otherwise be too far from the standard subway commute route. I don’t enjoy sitting in traffic, but it’s so much easier for me than any other alternative. I pick my travel times to minimize delays for myself (and presumably others) and I’m tired of being labeled an entitled snob, an idiot, or a murderer of cyclists.
- badfrog 7y ago
  > I can make stops at a few stores along the way that would otherwise be too far from the standard subway commute route. Where are you stopping between UWS and FiDi that has convenient parking?
  - maxaf 7y ago
    There are metered parking zones all over Manhattan. Many are commercial-only during the day, but revert to regular meters after a certain hour. There are copious bus lanes on many major thoroughfares, which are legal to park in outside of peak commuting hours. In some areas the street sweeper dance starts the evening before, leaving many spots unoccupied after drivers have absconded in search of parking spaces that won’t see a sweeper while the drivers are at work the next day. I use all of these hacks and more to make it possible to zip around town in a personal car.
    - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
      I attended a Seder on upper Park Ave, Manhattan, which had 3 people who used cars, including the rabbi who lives in Manhattan. One party was a visitor from out of town. The streets do look like rivers of cabs but I spot private cars and not all of those have ride share stickers.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  Indeed. I'm a west coast resident, and I've only visited NYC a handful of times, but last time I was there with my family, I rode cabs about as much as subway: in my limited experience, subway in Manhattan works well if you're moving on north-south axis, but not so well on east-west axis. When you're going east-west in Manhattan, you have to spend 15-20 minutes walking more often than not, which is usually not that bad, unless it's 95 degrees outside, and your children are miserable: spending 20 minutes in air conditioned cab then is much preferrable to spending 15 minutes walking in that circumstance. In that scenario, cabs also win often with subway, especially on short routes, since you can move 4 people with a single cab fare, while you have to pay 4 times the fare when you take the subway.
btrettel 7y ago
I think many drivers have inaccurate views of how good the various alternatives are. As a cyclist, I've had drivers tell me over the years that going from A to B is practically impossible on a bike, but I often find it perfectly reasonable. (A and B are random locations picked by the driver I'm speaking with, e.g., often drivers say that getting groceries on a bike is impossible.) In my experience, most drivers never give cycling a fair chance.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  Many people simply don't like physical activity. Of course, it would probably improve their health should they chose bicycle instead, but they aren't stupid or oblivious choosing to drive, nor is cycling objectively better. Some (in fact, probably a good majority of Americans) value less exertion and more convenience over health benefits or cash price. Maybe it would be better if they didn't, but compare it e.g. with reading books vs. watching TV. It might be better for society if people read more and watch TV less, but it would be silly to suggest that most TV watchers never give novels a fair chance, or express incredulity that some people are so oblivious that they prefer to watch TV instead of reading Dostoyevski. In short, people have differing preferences, and your model of reality should account for that.
  - btrettel 7y ago
    I acknowledge that people's preferences vary. I don't recommend cycling to everyone. But I also believe many people are mistaken about their preferences. Using your example of physical activity, I find that people greatly overestimate how difficult cycling is when done regularly. Fact is, you'll get in better shape, and what was once far too hard becomes easy. Similarly, many people seem absolutely opposed to sweating at all and that seems to be what stops them from cycling. But I actually don't know a single transportation cyclist who takes a shower after their commute. Yes, they do sweat, but they find the amount of sweating acceptable. There seems to be psychological research about this phenomena, e.g., here's a random article I found via Google: https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham https://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2004/04/pelham Similarly, many people have views about cycling that are false. For example, I've talked to several drivers about buying groceries on a bike, and I was surprised by how few seem to consider that you can add cargo capacity to a bike. Groceries seems to be many anti-cycling drivers "gotcha" question, but it's really not a problem. I don't think these things are obvious, but most drivers I've talked about these issues with seem to take very little initiative to investigate these assumptions. The easiest way would be to ask experienced cyclists. Also: I don't think that I'm calling drivers stupid or oblivious. If you think I am, can you explain how?

saalweachter 7y ago

> Going from NYC to the Adirondacks for a backpacking trip? Can't beat a car. Incidentally: https://www.adirondack.net/directions/getting-here-by-train/ https://www.adirondack.net/directions/getting-here-by-train/

badfrog 7y ago
> Every day, one train leaves New York City, travels through the Adirondacks, and ends up in Montreal. Another train follows the opposite route daily. One train per day isn't exactly convenient. And once you get off the train, you still somehow need to get to the trail head.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  For what it's worth, there's a super popular hiking spot 1.5 hours outside of NYC called Breakneck Ridge that is only served by a few MetroNorth trains per day (and only on weekends and holidays). And yet when I went there were MANY people doing it. That trailhead is close to the train station which is why it's so popular, but if it weren't, there's always Lyft/Uber. These are city-dwellers who don't own cars doing these hikes, so "driving your own car" isn't even an option. Renting a car for the day/weekend is, but that's much more expensive than round-trip train tickets.
  - badfrog 7y ago
    Yeah, it's great that these options exist. I've taken Metro North to hike on Mount Beacon before. But I still wouldn't say it's more convenient than a car.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      It's not more convenient than a car that one day of the month, but not having a car is definitely more convenient the other 30 days of the month. Owning a car in NYC is super inconvenient and expensive. Although I will say, the drive isn't that much faster than the train ride. And driving is dead time, whereas train riding time isn't.