6 ms·

What3Words submitting takedown requests against Tweets [pdf]

87 points by edent 7y ago

dsl 7y ago
Here is the context: https://twitter.com/owenboswarva/status/1173127802717114368 https://twitter.com/owenboswarva/status/1173127802717114368 TL;DR: A UK based startup "invented" a way to represent a lat/lng with three words. They patented it. Someone created whatfreewords.org, a clean room reimplementation and open sourced it. W3W's lawyers appears to be going to great lengths to ensure nobody finds out that it exists.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  I see the whatfreewords web api is down, I was wondering if their re-implementation actually manages to map the same words to coordinates - I assume not, which seems... problematic. Then w3w one.nice.spot would be in one place on the globe, but the same three words would map to a different place with whatfreewords. I could imagine some users being confused.
  - whatfreewords 7y ago
    It maps to the same spots, otherwise it would be pointless. You can use the live demo (using the JS library) at https://whatfreewords.org/demo/ https://whatfreewords.org/demo/ The API is down because our new generously-provided hosting does not support executing arbitrary code on the server. Without this provider the site would have been taken down again already, so we are grateful for what we've got.
    - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
      That makes sense, I see that the two implementations do agree on coordinates for the same words, which is very slick. I am trying to imagine how reverse-engineering would make that possible? I suppose it means that W3W used some known word list, and in patterns that could be pulled out of their results?
- deogeo 7y ago
  If they're UK based, how did they patent it? As far as I'm aware, the EU disallows patents on software "as such". And if this doesn't qualify as software "as such", then nothing does. Or is it only patented in the US?
- Akinato 7y ago
  Seems like they pulled a Streisand as now I've downloaded the entire free package just in case it disappears. Some of these are a blast too. dads.adjusted.cocktail is probably my favourite combo I've found so far. Nope: describe.myself.touchy is my new favourite.
mixedCase 7y ago
To any HN moderator, could you share the reason why whatfreewords' comment in this thread is [dead]?
- whatfreewords 7y ago
  Probably just because we're connecting over Tor.
russellbeattie 7y ago
If you're issuing takedown notices and threatening litigation over IP that can be completely contained in a 2MB JavaScript file, you've got serious problems as a company. They're obviously a one-trick-pony that's on their last legs... This is the only thing we'll hear about them until a small notice somewhere in a year or so that they've gone bankrupt.
jraph 7y ago
Thanks, I did not know about this alternative to W3W. It's nice when people produce free ads for a competing service, though doing it using DMCA takedowns is a bit weird. Be sure not to delete directions of people using your concept on Twitter, it would make it a bit dangerous to use!
- philpem 7y ago
  I'm amazed that in what, nearly twenty years (maybe more), people are still learning about the Streisand Effect first-hand.
kerkeslager 7y ago
I can understand why someone would want to run WhatFreeWords if What3Words is already a standard: it's dumb to pay for 238-lines-of-Python-as-a-service. The added latency alone is ridiculous. My question is, why would anyone commit to What3Words as a standard? There are much simpler ways to map geographic data to three-word combinations. One obvious way, dividing things up into rough "squares" of approximately even size, has the added benefit that shared or alphabetically proximal words would indicate geographical proximity: with What3Words, wounds.client.face is feet away from to jumped.storm.nest, but hundreds of miles from wounds.client.fact. If you don't think that's useful, then perhaps it's useful to use one of the other word lists which are on many computers, to share space, such as the PGP Word List[1] or the word list from RFC 1760[2]. One of the touted benefits of What3Words is that it is algorithmic and therefore doesn't require a large mapping file, so it's appropriate for systems where storage comes at a premium. Yet they used a more complicated algorithm and didn't reuse an existing word list? It seems like their algorithm design was basically driven to try to make it hard to reverse engineer, and it didn't even achieve that. The only reason I can see why this became anything resembling a standard is that some people really want to pay for services. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1760 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1760
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  W3W is a nasty rent-seeking operation. They have invented a flawed solution looking for a problem and are using lots and lots of dubious PR to try and get it mainstream so they can then start charging for the use of their stupid algorithm. Their PR attempts are absolutely pathetic but sadly seem to work on the masses. Their most frequent angle is someone contacting emergency services but somehow can't figure out his location, and W3W comes along and magically saves the day. The problem is that if I need a phone app & GPS signal to figure out my W3W, why can't I just use the GPS coordinates directly?
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    While I agree that W3W is a nasty rent-seeking operation, I do think that in broad strokes the location-as-words concept could be useful. > The problem is that if I need a phone app & GPS signal to figure out my W3W, why can't I just use the GPS coordinates directly? Think about verbal/handwritten transmission and mental/handwritten storage. It's not easy to transcribe "41.022755, -73.913102" or remember it. "medium.axed.hobby" is much easier. Copy/paste doesn't always work well on phones, and doesn't work at all across devices.
breakingcups 7y ago
Jeez, What3Words is such a scummy company.
- jfengel 7y ago
  I'm really sorry to hear that, though it was kind of obvious given the way they were trying to monetize it. If they had open-sourced it and tried to make some money off of being associated with it, the idea could perhaps have taken off. It's a reasonably clever and catchy idea, but not nearly valuable enough to make real money off of. It's exactly the kind of thing Google throws out for free to see if it catches on.
  - juliansimioni 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you're referring to it, but Google actually DID throw out something very similar for free: Plus Codes (https://plus.codes/ https://plus.codes/) There are still problems with the idea of large tech companies deciding on an addressing system for the whole world (the entire concept of tech colonialism, for example), but Plus Codes are an undeniably better implementation and also freely usable.
NelsonMinar 7y ago
I got one of these takedown notices. It's totally inappropriate, but I'm not going to waste time fighting it. The maddening thing is I didn't even link to the code; I linked to their FAQ, the document that explains why their clean room implementation is non-infringing. https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html They're abusing the DMCA to shut down discussion.
jones1618 7y ago
What3Words is free to use for individuals. People complaining of "rent-seeking" must believe that every SAAS should be free. Even if you think that the amount of code and effort involved was less than Google search or Bitcoin, why shouldn't they derive revenue from their good and useful idea?

87 points by edent 7y ago

dsl 7y ago

Here is the context: https://twitter.com/owenboswarva/status/1173127802717114368 https://twitter.com/owenboswarva/status/1173127802717114368 TL;DR: A UK based startup "invented" a way to represent a lat/lng with three words. They patented it. Someone created whatfreewords.org, a clean room reimplementation and open sourced it. W3W's lawyers appears to be going to great lengths to ensure nobody finds out that it exists.

blacksmith_tb 7y ago
I see the whatfreewords web api is down, I was wondering if their re-implementation actually manages to map the same words to coordinates - I assume not, which seems... problematic. Then w3w one.nice.spot would be in one place on the globe, but the same three words would map to a different place with whatfreewords. I could imagine some users being confused.
- whatfreewords 7y ago
  It maps to the same spots, otherwise it would be pointless. You can use the live demo (using the JS library) at https://whatfreewords.org/demo/ https://whatfreewords.org/demo/ The API is down because our new generously-provided hosting does not support executing arbitrary code on the server. Without this provider the site would have been taken down again already, so we are grateful for what we've got.
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    That makes sense, I see that the two implementations do agree on coordinates for the same words, which is very slick. I am trying to imagine how reverse-engineering would make that possible? I suppose it means that W3W used some known word list, and in patterns that could be pulled out of their results?
deogeo 7y ago
If they're UK based, how did they patent it? As far as I'm aware, the EU disallows patents on software "as such". And if this doesn't qualify as software "as such", then nothing does. Or is it only patented in the US?
Akinato 7y ago
Seems like they pulled a Streisand as now I've downloaded the entire free package just in case it disappears. Some of these are a blast too. dads.adjusted.cocktail is probably my favourite combo I've found so far. Nope: describe.myself.touchy is my new favourite.

mixedCase 7y ago

To any HN moderator, could you share the reason why whatfreewords' comment in this thread is [dead]?

whatfreewords 7y ago
Probably just because we're connecting over Tor.

russellbeattie 7y ago

If you're issuing takedown notices and threatening litigation over IP that can be completely contained in a 2MB JavaScript file, you've got serious problems as a company. They're obviously a one-trick-pony that's on their last legs... This is the only thing we'll hear about them until a small notice somewhere in a year or so that they've gone bankrupt.

jraph 7y ago

Thanks, I did not know about this alternative to W3W. It's nice when people produce free ads for a competing service, though doing it using DMCA takedowns is a bit weird. Be sure not to delete directions of people using your concept on Twitter, it would make it a bit dangerous to use!

philpem 7y ago
I'm amazed that in what, nearly twenty years (maybe more), people are still learning about the Streisand Effect first-hand.

kerkeslager 7y ago

I can understand why someone would want to run WhatFreeWords if What3Words is already a standard: it's dumb to pay for 238-lines-of-Python-as-a-service. The added latency alone is ridiculous. My question is, why would anyone commit to What3Words as a standard? There are much simpler ways to map geographic data to three-word combinations. One obvious way, dividing things up into rough "squares" of approximately even size, has the added benefit that shared or alphabetically proximal words would indicate geographical proximity: with What3Words, wounds.client.face is feet away from to jumped.storm.nest, but hundreds of miles from wounds.client.fact. If you don't think that's useful, then perhaps it's useful to use one of the other word lists which are on many computers, to share space, such as the PGP Word List[1] or the word list from RFC 1760[2]. One of the touted benefits of What3Words is that it is algorithmic and therefore doesn't require a large mapping file, so it's appropriate for systems where storage comes at a premium. Yet they used a more complicated algorithm and didn't reuse an existing word list? It seems like their algorithm design was basically driven to try to make it hard to reverse engineer, and it didn't even achieve that. The only reason I can see why this became anything resembling a standard is that some people really want to pay for services. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1760 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1760

Nextgrid 7y ago
W3W is a nasty rent-seeking operation. They have invented a flawed solution looking for a problem and are using lots and lots of dubious PR to try and get it mainstream so they can then start charging for the use of their stupid algorithm. Their PR attempts are absolutely pathetic but sadly seem to work on the masses. Their most frequent angle is someone contacting emergency services but somehow can't figure out his location, and W3W comes along and magically saves the day. The problem is that if I need a phone app & GPS signal to figure out my W3W, why can't I just use the GPS coordinates directly?
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  While I agree that W3W is a nasty rent-seeking operation, I do think that in broad strokes the location-as-words concept could be useful. > The problem is that if I need a phone app & GPS signal to figure out my W3W, why can't I just use the GPS coordinates directly? Think about verbal/handwritten transmission and mental/handwritten storage. It's not easy to transcribe "41.022755, -73.913102" or remember it. "medium.axed.hobby" is much easier. Copy/paste doesn't always work well on phones, and doesn't work at all across devices.

breakingcups 7y ago

Jeez, What3Words is such a scummy company.

jfengel 7y ago
I'm really sorry to hear that, though it was kind of obvious given the way they were trying to monetize it. If they had open-sourced it and tried to make some money off of being associated with it, the idea could perhaps have taken off. It's a reasonably clever and catchy idea, but not nearly valuable enough to make real money off of. It's exactly the kind of thing Google throws out for free to see if it catches on.
- juliansimioni 7y ago
  I'm not sure if you're referring to it, but Google actually DID throw out something very similar for free: Plus Codes (https://plus.codes/ https://plus.codes/) There are still problems with the idea of large tech companies deciding on an addressing system for the whole world (the entire concept of tech colonialism, for example), but Plus Codes are an undeniably better implementation and also freely usable.

NelsonMinar 7y ago

I got one of these takedown notices. It's totally inappropriate, but I'm not going to waste time fighting it. The maddening thing is I didn't even link to the code; I linked to their FAQ, the document that explains why their clean room implementation is non-infringing. https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html https://whatfreewords.org/faq.html They're abusing the DMCA to shut down discussion.

jones1618 7y ago

What3Words is free to use for individuals. People complaining of "rent-seeking" must believe that every SAAS should be free. Even if you think that the amount of code and effort involved was less than Google search or Bitcoin, why shouldn't they derive revenue from their good and useful idea?