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Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be dep

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I'd probably have made the same decision as you (I'm fortunate to have a safety net), but many people don't have that luxury.

Macuyiko 7y ago
I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.
- forkerenok 7y ago
  Perhaps that manager had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... But seriously, moral is the thing that applies not only when it's convenient. Disclaimer: I have no moral right to preach this.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Maybe that the engineer or the manager (or both) are not that old and still paying of their student loans and other debt babies. Though I'd go with the ability to add or remove emojis or restrict them was a facility engineered for more moral motives and was a point and click level of solution that those with access could do such a change with ease. Or It was upper management... Either way - I do not expect an announcement from Apple saying "Zach in engineering did it, his bad, sorry for that", or indeed anything at all as that would fuel this and unless it is still trending as an issue after a few weeks, then they might. But in general, such things PR wise, blow over and Apple like most have found that not fueling it with any response unless it is exactly what the populus want to hear, it is best to say nothing. At least, that is how many such comparable matters play out with such large corporations throughout history, though they have improved. EDIT[ s/hold/old/ ]
- root_axis 7y ago
  We should still blame the engineer, but they shouldn't shoulder the majority of the blame.
  - behnamoh 7y ago
    Maybe if all engineers quit with the first immoral request by the management, it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them. We only see what has happened, not what has not happened. What if the iOS engineers do in fact have moral values and have declined some of the management's more immoral requests many times, but this particular request seemed the lesser of two devils? Maybe those engineers don't quit exactly because they want to hinder such actions by the management.
    - csallen 7y ago
      Thanks for making an insightful comment that acknowledges the complexities of the world and tries to take into account the information, events, and possibilities that we don't see. That's quite rare. It's more much common to assume that everything we know about the situation is sufficient to pass judgment.
    - ryandrake 7y ago
      I’ve in past jobs occasionally objected to being assigned a task on ethical grounds. My manager never had a problem with it. There were 10 people on the team so he’d just reassign it to one of the other nine who had no problem with the task. There is no unified code of ethics that all software developers must abide by, so getting unethical work done is just a matter of moving the work to the next developer in line.
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      well hypotheticals without a concrete example are not much use, I'm left to speculate that they told the engineer either we shoot and eat this baby, or you hide the flag and they heroically hid the flag. But until I get a confirmation on this unselfish act I'm gonna go with probably didn't think much about it and took the next ticket on his list. Which hey. I'm not on a high enough horse here to berate the guy, but not on a low enough horse to speculate how noble he must be in secret. (excuse the gender specific pronouns)
- Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
  I put the blame on both. We have a responsibility to exercise ethical discretion in our work, and we have the power to do so. If you get fired for refusing to remove the Taiwanese flag from iOS, then take to your blog, set a fire under Apple's ass, and wait for the interview offers to roll in.
  - senderista 7y ago
    Isn’t it likely that would be an NDA violation?
    - Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
      Maybe, but for my part I'd break it in a heartbeat and let them sue me. Perhaps the right answer is a tech workers union.
      - hutzlibu 7y ago
        Sadly I believe that the job offers will be limited as moat companies like obidient employers more, than independent ones who cause discomfort. You would have to have good skills to compensate. (or the willingness to move to taiwan)
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees. If we blame anyone, it should be the CEOs, board members, and large shareholders.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  Not "managers" but the AAPL board. China will ban all iPhone sales in a heartbeat, sending the stock xx% down. Go ahead and keep the Taiwan flag there then...
colechristensen 7y ago
With the amount that engineers get paid in the bay area it's ridiculous that having a safety net isn't trivially easy. The real estate situation here (and everywhere) is ridiculous - it isn't right that the price of housing seems everywhere to be a little bit too much for anybody to afford.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Debt, student debt, mortgage debt, cost of living in such a high paying area do tend to be much more expensive - fiscal relativity if you like. So not as clear cut that they can all just pack up and go walkabout.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  About 8 years ago at breakfast I told my GF I had a book idea. I'd make millions on it! Live Flat Fucking Broke in San Francisco for only $250 a Day
reaperducer 7y ago
Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I believe the applicable phrase here is "courage of your convictions." I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. A few years ago I stood up to a middle manager over privacy issues in a feature request. It went far enough to get HR and the legal department involved. It took half a year, but I won. Bully managers count on people being afraid to lose their jobs. If more people stood up to them, they'd be afraid to make stupid requests in the first place.
- Jweb_Guru 7y ago
  You say you didn't have "a safety net." What was your actual situation? For example, were you liable to be deported if you quit your job?
- munchbunny 7y ago
  Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? Having a safety net generally means that your situation might be tough but you're okay if you quit/lose your job. Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". The definition has gray area (such as if your family in your birth country is rich), but as a rule of thumb if deportation is the likely outcome, then you don't have a safety net. IF you are an immigrant family, this is a trolley problem. Regardless of the courage of your convictions, you are making a choice for not just yourself, but your spouse and kids. It's not purely your own choice.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? I had neither. I took menial temp jobs and short-term manual labor jobs for a while until I could get something full-time in my field. Took about six months the first time, and nine months the second time. Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". Is it? It's not like if you lose your job when you're on an H1B they send you to the suicide booth. You just end up back in your old country, but with a much better resume. Yes, life is harder than it was in the United States, but you start again. That's what people do — they get back up when they're knocked down. I've done it four times now. Losing an H1B is not the end of someone's life.
icelancer 7y ago
It is the willingness to pay a price that separates standing for bedrock principles from cheap virtue signalling.
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
A married man with a family will do anything for money. Talleyrand
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
Doesn't Apple employ software engineers in China? https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=china-CHNC&page=5 https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=china-CHNC&page... Is it reasonable to believe Apple might have signed that task to a team sympathetic to the One-China policy, or just generally someone who was happy to do it? Why do people think there was some sort of circumstance that caused the engineer to compromise on their morals?
reddog 7y ago
Christopher Buckley called this 'the yuppie Nuremberg defense'.
daveslash 7y ago
Or maybe the Engineer could have been in mainland China? The parent comments assert that an engineer would only do this if they have no morals or are under some pressure -- but it's possible that they might actually agree with this. Edit: As an engineer, I would protest being assigned this work.

Macuyiko 7y ago

I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.

forkerenok 7y ago
Perhaps that manager had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... But seriously, moral is the thing that applies not only when it's convenient. Disclaimer: I have no moral right to preach this.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Maybe that the engineer or the manager (or both) are not that old and still paying of their student loans and other debt babies. Though I'd go with the ability to add or remove emojis or restrict them was a facility engineered for more moral motives and was a point and click level of solution that those with access could do such a change with ease. Or It was upper management... Either way - I do not expect an announcement from Apple saying "Zach in engineering did it, his bad, sorry for that", or indeed anything at all as that would fuel this and unless it is still trending as an issue after a few weeks, then they might. But in general, such things PR wise, blow over and Apple like most have found that not fueling it with any response unless it is exactly what the populus want to hear, it is best to say nothing. At least, that is how many such comparable matters play out with such large corporations throughout history, though they have improved. EDIT[ s/hold/old/ ]
root_axis 7y ago
We should still blame the engineer, but they shouldn't shoulder the majority of the blame.
- behnamoh 7y ago
  Maybe if all engineers quit with the first immoral request by the management, it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them. We only see what has happened, not what has not happened. What if the iOS engineers do in fact have moral values and have declined some of the management's more immoral requests many times, but this particular request seemed the lesser of two devils? Maybe those engineers don't quit exactly because they want to hinder such actions by the management.
  - csallen 7y ago
    Thanks for making an insightful comment that acknowledges the complexities of the world and tries to take into account the information, events, and possibilities that we don't see. That's quite rare. It's more much common to assume that everything we know about the situation is sufficient to pass judgment.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    I’ve in past jobs occasionally objected to being assigned a task on ethical grounds. My manager never had a problem with it. There were 10 people on the team so he’d just reassign it to one of the other nine who had no problem with the task. There is no unified code of ethics that all software developers must abide by, so getting unethical work done is just a matter of moving the work to the next developer in line.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    well hypotheticals without a concrete example are not much use, I'm left to speculate that they told the engineer either we shoot and eat this baby, or you hide the flag and they heroically hid the flag. But until I get a confirmation on this unselfish act I'm gonna go with probably didn't think much about it and took the next ticket on his list. Which hey. I'm not on a high enough horse here to berate the guy, but not on a low enough horse to speculate how noble he must be in secret. (excuse the gender specific pronouns)
Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
I put the blame on both. We have a responsibility to exercise ethical discretion in our work, and we have the power to do so. If you get fired for refusing to remove the Taiwanese flag from iOS, then take to your blog, set a fire under Apple's ass, and wait for the interview offers to roll in.
- senderista 7y ago
  Isn’t it likely that would be an NDA violation?
  - Sir_Cmpwn 7y ago
    Maybe, but for my part I'd break it in a heartbeat and let them sue me. Perhaps the right answer is a tech workers union.
    - hutzlibu 7y ago
      Sadly I believe that the job offers will be limited as moat companies like obidient employers more, than independent ones who cause discomfort. You would have to have good skills to compensate. (or the willingness to move to taiwan)
CharlesColeman 7y ago
> I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees. If we blame anyone, it should be the CEOs, board members, and large shareholders.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Not "managers" but the AAPL board. China will ban all iPhone sales in a heartbeat, sending the stock xx% down. Go ahead and keep the Taiwan flag there then...

colechristensen 7y ago

With the amount that engineers get paid in the bay area it's ridiculous that having a safety net isn't trivially easy. The real estate situation here (and everywhere) is ridiculous - it isn't right that the price of housing seems everywhere to be a little bit too much for anybody to afford.

Zenst 7y ago
Debt, student debt, mortgage debt, cost of living in such a high paying area do tend to be much more expensive - fiscal relativity if you like. So not as clear cut that they can all just pack up and go walkabout.
Gibbon1 7y ago
About 8 years ago at breakfast I told my GF I had a book idea. I'd make millions on it! Live Flat Fucking Broke in San Francisco for only $250 a Day

reaperducer 7y ago

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I believe the applicable phrase here is "courage of your convictions." I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. A few years ago I stood up to a middle manager over privacy issues in a feature request. It went far enough to get HR and the legal department involved. It took half a year, but I won. Bully managers count on people being afraid to lose their jobs. If more people stood up to them, they'd be afraid to make stupid requests in the first place.

Jweb_Guru 7y ago
You say you didn't have "a safety net." What was your actual situation? For example, were you liable to be deported if you quit your job?
munchbunny 7y ago
Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? Having a safety net generally means that your situation might be tough but you're okay if you quit/lose your job. Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". The definition has gray area (such as if your family in your birth country is rich), but as a rule of thumb if deportation is the likely outcome, then you don't have a safety net. IF you are an immigrant family, this is a trolley problem. Regardless of the courage of your convictions, you are making a choice for not just yourself, but your spouse and kids. It's not purely your own choice.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? I had neither. I took menial temp jobs and short-term manual labor jobs for a while until I could get something full-time in my field. Took about six months the first time, and nine months the second time. Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". Is it? It's not like if you lose your job when you're on an H1B they send you to the suicide booth. You just end up back in your old country, but with a much better resume. Yes, life is harder than it was in the United States, but you start again. That's what people do — they get back up when they're knocked down. I've done it four times now. Losing an H1B is not the end of someone's life.

icelancer 7y ago

It is the willingness to pay a price that separates standing for bedrock principles from cheap virtue signalling.

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago

A married man with a family will do anything for money. Talleyrand

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

Doesn't Apple employ software engineers in China? https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=china-CHNC&page=5 https://jobs.apple.com/en-us/search?location=china-CHNC&page... Is it reasonable to believe Apple might have signed that task to a team sympathetic to the One-China policy, or just generally someone who was happy to do it? Why do people think there was some sort of circumstance that caused the engineer to compromise on their morals?

reddog 7y ago

Christopher Buckley called this 'the yuppie Nuremberg defense'.

daveslash 7y ago

Or maybe the Engineer could have been in mainland China? The parent comments assert that an engineer would only do this if they have no morals or are under some pressure -- but it's possible that they might actually agree with this. Edit: As an engineer, I would protest being assigned this work.