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the ability for women to be able to contribute and simply be a part of the free software community without harrassment does not fall under "no real bearing on t

the ability for women to be able to contribute and simply be a part of the free software community without harrassment does not fall under "no real bearing on the project", just so we're clear here.

blub 7y ago
Women will never "be able to contribute and simply be part of the free software community without harassment", because any online community is a reflection of society at large, which is becoming more fragmented, agressive and embittered. Did female harassment get solved in society at large? No. You can't solve it in online communities, you're only building bubbles of false-safety which will pop once the pressure from the real world becomes high enough. America in particular is under so much political and social tension that it's starting to show cracks and online lynch mobs are a part of the problem.
- bepvte 7y ago
  How would you solve harassment then? If you dont believe in small changes in smaller communities, do you believe that change has to occur in all of society at once?
  - blub 7y ago
    I believe change has to happen in the real world and start with educating children and then continue in schools and colleges. We literally have to grow generations for which equality is self-evident. And people will know what's fair and when they're being bullied. The change has to work towards equality, not revenge and entrapping others. Currently the exact opposite is happening: the changes are forced by small online groups, mostly associated with software development. Which bully others into submission. You've probably noticed how in the real world, society is quite divided, with basic civil rights being questioned. This is what happens when people "win" in their little software bubbles.
- ghettoimp 7y ago
  Er, what? The harasser is aggressive and bitter? They harass people in real life? It sounds like they have some problems. Maybe they can go work on themselves and come back to the community when they're ready to be civil. We wouldn't tolerate sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace or in civil society. I don't see why we wouldn't expect a basic level of decorum in respectable online communities.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Can we guarantee that there never will be any harassment? No, of course not. But what we can do is strongly oppose any harassment. Clearly tell off anyone whe participates in harassment. Of course, the leaders of any community should be a role model in not supporting harassment.
falcolas 7y ago
Unless I'm dramatically misreading all the various articles, only a few women that were directly approached by Stallman for a romantic encounter felt discouraged. This did not impact a vast majority of the women who have, and do, contribute to GNU projects. Yeah, he fucked up in approaching those women and making them uncomfortable. However, a couple of data points do not a trend make.
- dtornabene 7y ago
  I'm not sure how you're getting any kind of round statistics here. especially since its well known that most people who suffer harassment never report it, never say anything, for precisely the reasons being demonstrated on this thread today. And that was only one of the things wrong with that post, another being: people who choose to take a stand on harassment are somehow going to be mediocrities compared to stallman.
  - oknenavin 7y ago
    It's well known, let's burn the witch!
  - falcolas 7y ago
    So, statistics. Allow me to fabricate a few number using some well known ballparking methods. In November of 2010, 4,600 people contributed to GNU. If we follow the 1-9-90 rule of speaking out, for every 1 woman who went to the authorities, 9 women have spoken out publicly, and, 90 others have not. I'm aware of 6-7 who have gone public with their accusations, and none who went to the authorities. As such, it seems safe (if likely excessive) to say that less than 100 women have been actively harassed via awkward romantic advances over the last 20 years. So, in this scenario, not even 2% of the contributors from one month were harassed by Stallman. If we consider GNU to be on par with other software projects and say that about 30% of the total contributors for that month were women, then about 7% of the woman contributors from one month were harassed by Stallman over 20 years. It's still too high a number, but it's not exactly a vast majority.
    - 7y ago
lostjohnny 7y ago
> the ability for women to be able to contribute Has always been respected. FSF is no Uber[1] or Salesforce[1] or other corporations where women are harassed and molested. [1] https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-list/travis-kalanick https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-... [2] https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/28/whats-current-50-women-sue-tech-company-salesforce-for-facilitating-sex-trafficking/ https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/28/whats-current-50-...

the ability for women to be able to contribute and simply be a part of the free software community without harrassment does not fall under "no real bearing on the project", just so we're clear here.

blub 7y ago

Women will never "be able to contribute and simply be part of the free software community without harassment", because any online community is a reflection of society at large, which is becoming more fragmented, agressive and embittered. Did female harassment get solved in society at large? No. You can't solve it in online communities, you're only building bubbles of false-safety which will pop once the pressure from the real world becomes high enough. America in particular is under so much political and social tension that it's starting to show cracks and online lynch mobs are a part of the problem.

bepvte 7y ago
How would you solve harassment then? If you dont believe in small changes in smaller communities, do you believe that change has to occur in all of society at once?
- blub 7y ago
  I believe change has to happen in the real world and start with educating children and then continue in schools and colleges. We literally have to grow generations for which equality is self-evident. And people will know what's fair and when they're being bullied. The change has to work towards equality, not revenge and entrapping others. Currently the exact opposite is happening: the changes are forced by small online groups, mostly associated with software development. Which bully others into submission. You've probably noticed how in the real world, society is quite divided, with basic civil rights being questioned. This is what happens when people "win" in their little software bubbles.
ghettoimp 7y ago
Er, what? The harasser is aggressive and bitter? They harass people in real life? It sounds like they have some problems. Maybe they can go work on themselves and come back to the community when they're ready to be civil. We wouldn't tolerate sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace or in civil society. I don't see why we wouldn't expect a basic level of decorum in respectable online communities.
_ph_ 7y ago
Can we guarantee that there never will be any harassment? No, of course not. But what we can do is strongly oppose any harassment. Clearly tell off anyone whe participates in harassment. Of course, the leaders of any community should be a role model in not supporting harassment.

falcolas 7y ago

Unless I'm dramatically misreading all the various articles, only a few women that were directly approached by Stallman for a romantic encounter felt discouraged. This did not impact a vast majority of the women who have, and do, contribute to GNU projects. Yeah, he fucked up in approaching those women and making them uncomfortable. However, a couple of data points do not a trend make.

dtornabene 7y ago
I'm not sure how you're getting any kind of round statistics here. especially since its well known that most people who suffer harassment never report it, never say anything, for precisely the reasons being demonstrated on this thread today. And that was only one of the things wrong with that post, another being: people who choose to take a stand on harassment are somehow going to be mediocrities compared to stallman.
- oknenavin 7y ago
  It's well known, let's burn the witch!
- falcolas 7y ago
  So, statistics. Allow me to fabricate a few number using some well known ballparking methods. In November of 2010, 4,600 people contributed to GNU. If we follow the 1-9-90 rule of speaking out, for every 1 woman who went to the authorities, 9 women have spoken out publicly, and, 90 others have not. I'm aware of 6-7 who have gone public with their accusations, and none who went to the authorities. As such, it seems safe (if likely excessive) to say that less than 100 women have been actively harassed via awkward romantic advances over the last 20 years. So, in this scenario, not even 2% of the contributors from one month were harassed by Stallman. If we consider GNU to be on par with other software projects and say that about 30% of the total contributors for that month were women, then about 7% of the woman contributors from one month were harassed by Stallman over 20 years. It's still too high a number, but it's not exactly a vast majority.
  - 7y ago

lostjohnny 7y ago

> the ability for women to be able to contribute Has always been respected. FSF is no Uber[1] or Salesforce[1] or other corporations where women are harassed and molested. [1] https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-list/travis-kalanick https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-... [2] https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/28/whats-current-50-women-sue-tech-company-salesforce-for-facilitating-sex-trafficking/ https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/03/28/whats-current-50-...