7 ms·

Oh my god. "all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shado

by etiam 7y ago

Oh my god. "all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shadow if due process as soon as the word "sexual" is mentioned? And therefore Stallman should be thrown out of the project that is his creation and life's work? That's got to be one of the most forced political readings ever of that point in the manifesto. Well, if that's the argument, I'm a computer user too and every one of these signatories have just demonstrated themselves unfit to represent me. Enough of the witch hunt, and hands off Richard Stallman's thoroughly earned standing in the GNU project!

duxup 7y ago
I don't think that is what they mean by "all computer users". You can not be a part of a lynch mob, and still take issue with Stallman's statements / behavior.
- meijer 7y ago
  But the lynch mob is still there and defends its cancel culture. You can see them all over Twitter. They are ruthless.
  - duxup 7y ago
    That's not really relevant to what the folks who wrote that letter means by "all computer users".
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    Cancel culture isn't a thing. Being held accountable for one's actions and freedom of assocation, those are things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szybEhqUmVI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szybEhqUmVI
- simion314 7y ago
  I only seen some accusation that appeared now after 20 years , where RMS said something and some people were made uncomfortable. I agree RMS is not a sociable person but I would have preferred to see some significant "crime" , now I have the feeling that you can be kicked out from your own project if you made a stupid comment or thing in the past and the social media gets enraged by mostly FUD and exagerations of your said comment.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I've seen enough written about it, even by Stallman's supporters who say they've had conversations with him about these things before, to indicate his behavior has been more than just a poorly worded conversation. The existence of some folks who skew those things IMO isn't relevant when it comes to the things that I've seen that seem like believable accounts.
    - simion314 7y ago
      Some of those people that wrote against RMS are not in good relations with him so you need to consider those memories as biased.
      - duxup 7y ago
        I'm not sure that means something is necessarily biased.
        simion314 7y ago
        Our memories are always biased, now if you add some grudge in the mix I am sure you will remember the bad parts as extreme and ignore the good parts.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    If that's your concern, I recommend reading up further on people's issues with rms. It's not "some accusations that appeared after 20 years," it's 30 years of pattern. https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...
    - simion314 7y ago
      Your article is fake news, RMS did not defended Epsein and the pedophilia thing is an opinion that he changed his mind about. From what I read about this topic the legal age for sex is not topic where 95% people agree one and RMS had a different view then the majority and he was convinced to change his mind (proving he is open minded) I did not read the rest since it probably is as fake or exaggerated as the beginning.
chris_wot 7y ago
The GNU project still allows you to use, read and modify all their work with no restrictions other than you must not place restrictions on your derived work. How have they stopped you from doing so in their signed open letter?
snotrockets 7y ago
Due process is for the court. If you ousted yourself as an asshole in public, people not wanting to associate with you isn't legal, it's civilized society.
- xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
  This is the important point frequently omitted. They don't _have_ to do any of this. They _should_, though, as society demands it. Folks are free to disagree, but this is very much the right move.
- falcolas 7y ago
  We, as a society, have established due process in the government and courts because we believe it's the right thing - the moral thing - to do. If it's the right thing to do for the most powerful entity in our land, what makes it not the right thing to do in all venues?
  - kennywinker 7y ago
    If I come to your house for dinner, and am an asshole to you and your family, do we need to get the law involved or should you just not invite me over for dinner again?
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Perhaps I pull you aside, call you out for your actions, and give you the chance to change your ways. One strike and your out isn't even how we play baseball.
      - kennywinker 7y ago
        ... from the sounds of it, I assume the pull-aside convo happened and failed. Maybe I'm too trusting. I have no evidence that kind of a convo happened. But the allegations are that RMS has been a missing stair for well over 20 years. I find it very hard to believe that someone who's been causing problems in a community for 20+ years has never had a friend pull them aside and ask them to change their behaviour.
Jasper_ 7y ago
Stallman's behavior has been known to the community for a long time. He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. This isn't a new "witch hunt", it's been boiling forever, it's been known forever, but now the climate has changed enough that people are believing the allegations, and he's finally facing consequences for his actions. What due process do you want, given that it's taken at least 7 years for such allegations to be taken seriously by some subsection of the community?
- simion314 7y ago
  What allegations ? You came now after years with some people memories on what may have happened? Would you like to be accused of something that you may have said 20 years ago, that is not a crime but may have upset someone? Why not talk about the present, the last year and not dig ancient history because there is nothing recent to complain about.
- 68plus57equals5 7y ago
  > He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. Could you name at least couple of those conferences he was banned from? Preferably with surrounding circumstances?
  - jlokier 7y ago
    I can't answer that question. But this HN comment does a good job of describing events at a recentish conference, although not a banning: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21186822 Although I'm a big fan of RMS's deeper works (as will be obvious from my other comment), it's easy to imagine him (or to be honest, anyone insufficiently skilled at public speaking) making terribly misguided (at best) "jokes" and the like about how few women there are in tech and implying something about finding sex and girlfriends etc., and these being understood in some literal way as actual requests for sex (probably incorrectly). Just like the poor-taste sexist humour in the lower-scoring comments on Slashdot, only carried into the public, verbal arena, where it's a really bad idea, and indeed, alienating and oppressive. That sort of thing could get a person banned at a conference these days. (It would have been treated as humorous banter a few decades ago, and I find myself imagining that's when RMS learned his trade.) But usually there's some kind of escalation process, where people are told to stop doing it, and, if necessary, have it explained to them what is unacceptable and why.

by etiam 7y ago

duxup 7y ago

I don't think that is what they mean by "all computer users". You can not be a part of a lynch mob, and still take issue with Stallman's statements / behavior.

meijer 7y ago
But the lynch mob is still there and defends its cancel culture. You can see them all over Twitter. They are ruthless.
- duxup 7y ago
  That's not really relevant to what the folks who wrote that letter means by "all computer users".
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Cancel culture isn't a thing. Being held accountable for one's actions and freedom of assocation, those are things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szybEhqUmVI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szybEhqUmVI
simion314 7y ago
I only seen some accusation that appeared now after 20 years , where RMS said something and some people were made uncomfortable. I agree RMS is not a sociable person but I would have preferred to see some significant "crime" , now I have the feeling that you can be kicked out from your own project if you made a stupid comment or thing in the past and the social media gets enraged by mostly FUD and exagerations of your said comment.
- duxup 7y ago
  I've seen enough written about it, even by Stallman's supporters who say they've had conversations with him about these things before, to indicate his behavior has been more than just a poorly worded conversation. The existence of some folks who skew those things IMO isn't relevant when it comes to the things that I've seen that seem like believable accounts.
  - simion314 7y ago
    Some of those people that wrote against RMS are not in good relations with him so you need to consider those memories as biased.
    - duxup 7y ago
      I'm not sure that means something is necessarily biased.
      - simion314 7y ago
        Our memories are always biased, now if you add some grudge in the mix I am sure you will remember the bad parts as extreme and ignore the good parts.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  If that's your concern, I recommend reading up further on people's issues with rms. It's not "some accusations that appeared after 20 years," it's 30 years of pattern. https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...
  - simion314 7y ago
    Your article is fake news, RMS did not defended Epsein and the pedophilia thing is an opinion that he changed his mind about. From what I read about this topic the legal age for sex is not topic where 95% people agree one and RMS had a different view then the majority and he was convinced to change his mind (proving he is open minded) I did not read the rest since it probably is as fake or exaggerated as the beginning.

chris_wot 7y ago

The GNU project still allows you to use, read and modify all their work with no restrictions other than you must not place restrictions on your derived work. How have they stopped you from doing so in their signed open letter?

snotrockets 7y ago

Due process is for the court. If you ousted yourself as an asshole in public, people not wanting to associate with you isn't legal, it's civilized society.

xyzzy_plugh 7y ago
This is the important point frequently omitted. They don't _have_ to do any of this. They _should_, though, as society demands it. Folks are free to disagree, but this is very much the right move.
falcolas 7y ago
We, as a society, have established due process in the government and courts because we believe it's the right thing - the moral thing - to do. If it's the right thing to do for the most powerful entity in our land, what makes it not the right thing to do in all venues?
- kennywinker 7y ago
  If I come to your house for dinner, and am an asshole to you and your family, do we need to get the law involved or should you just not invite me over for dinner again?
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Perhaps I pull you aside, call you out for your actions, and give you the chance to change your ways. One strike and your out isn't even how we play baseball.
    - kennywinker 7y ago
      ... from the sounds of it, I assume the pull-aside convo happened and failed. Maybe I'm too trusting. I have no evidence that kind of a convo happened. But the allegations are that RMS has been a missing stair for well over 20 years. I find it very hard to believe that someone who's been causing problems in a community for 20+ years has never had a friend pull them aside and ask them to change their behaviour.

Jasper_ 7y ago

Stallman's behavior has been known to the community for a long time. He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. This isn't a new "witch hunt", it's been boiling forever, it's been known forever, but now the climate has changed enough that people are believing the allegations, and he's finally facing consequences for his actions. What due process do you want, given that it's taken at least 7 years for such allegations to be taken seriously by some subsection of the community?

simion314 7y ago
What allegations ? You came now after years with some people memories on what may have happened? Would you like to be accused of something that you may have said 20 years ago, that is not a crime but may have upset someone? Why not talk about the present, the last year and not dig ancient history because there is nothing recent to complain about.
68plus57equals5 7y ago
> He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. Could you name at least couple of those conferences he was banned from? Preferably with surrounding circumstances?
- jlokier 7y ago
  I can't answer that question. But this HN comment does a good job of describing events at a recentish conference, although not a banning: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21186822 Although I'm a big fan of RMS's deeper works (as will be obvious from my other comment), it's easy to imagine him (or to be honest, anyone insufficiently skilled at public speaking) making terribly misguided (at best) "jokes" and the like about how few women there are in tech and implying something about finding sex and girlfriends etc., and these being understood in some literal way as actual requests for sex (probably incorrectly). Just like the poor-taste sexist humour in the lower-scoring comments on Slashdot, only carried into the public, verbal arena, where it's a really bad idea, and indeed, alienating and oppressive. That sort of thing could get a person banned at a conference these days. (It would have been treated as humorous banter a few decades ago, and I find myself imagining that's when RMS learned his trade.) But usually there's some kind of escalation process, where people are told to stop doing it, and, if necessary, have it explained to them what is unacceptable and why.