7 ms·

We're looking at this from the perspective of people who understand computers. From the point of view of the bureaucrats who make thesse decisions computers are

by knolax 7y ago

We're looking at this from the perspective of people who understand computers. From the point of view of the bureaucrats who make thesse decisions computers are some arcane device that can. only display English. See for example the braindead orthographic reforms being pushed by the Turkmenistan government. Overhauling your entire written orthography just to be ASCII compatible! When these types of people see code they assume that they're looking at plain English and end up thinking that the language is somehow a fundamental part of how computers work.

Pxtl 7y ago
Well, it's hard to deny that life is easier for people using English-compatible writing systems. No trouble with physical keyboards, anglophones can take a stab at pronouncing things, and a lot of older computer technology predates modern unicode and nobody seems to be in a rush to replace it.
- knolax 7y ago
  I'd have to disagree at least in the context of computers. > No trouble with physical keyboards I've seen comments on HN before about how certain characters used for programming aren't on keyboards with European layouts, supposedly creating a barrier for beginner programmers. In contrast, somebody using a keyboard for one of the CJK languages only needs to press shift to type all the characters in Basic Latin because the physical layouts are the same. > lot of older computer technology predates modern unicode and nobody seems to be in a rush to replace it. There are probably way more computers that only support Shift JIS than computers that only use ASCII. I heard that apparently lack of support for Unicode is still a problem in certain Japanese offices. I think the most dangerous position to be in is when your writing system is similar to but not exactly the same as English, in which case people begin to adopt a "close enough" attitude and accept the status quo, choosing instead to change their orthography in counterproductive ways to fit ephemeral technical requirements.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > somebody using a keyboard for one of the CJK languages only needs to press shift to type all the characters in Basic Latin because the physical layouts are the same The keyboards you buy in China (the C in CJK) are the same ones you'd buy in the US. They don't have their own. This makes sense, since character input is done in software; there is no way to map physical keys to the much much larger inventory of characters.
    - knolax 7y ago
      Yes Mainland China generally uses ANSI or ISO but Taiwanese keyboards usually have labels for bopomofo and Cangjie[0] while having the same physical layout as a US keyboard. [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_Taiwanese_Keyboard_Layout.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_Taiwanese_K...
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > anglophones can take a stab at pronouncing things How is this supposed to help anyone? That anglophone guess isn't going to be close to correct -- in the general case, it's unlikely to even be recognizable.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    Well, it makes things easier for (many) tourists. Trying to hold the characters for a novel script in my head is tremendously more difficult than holding the letters for a new language that use Latin characters.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - knolax 7y ago
      You can still transliterate into English without overhauling your entire orthography.
  - astrodust 7y ago
    Portuguese uses Latin letters, but good luck pronouncing even half the words correctly without a lot of practice.
    - _delirium 7y ago
      True, though foreigners who can read the Latin script can at least recognize names on Portuguese signs, which helps with getting around (as long as you don't have to speak the name out loud). That's half the reason Greece provides Latin names on signs everywhere. With a sign that says "Χανιά | Chania", your average foreigner isn't going to pronounce it correctly either way (the "ch" is supposed to be like "loch", not like "chess"), but at least with a Latin version appended they're more likely to find where they're going.
- mFixman 7y ago
  The Latin alphabet is actually a terrible way to write English, and guessing how to pronounce words is the hardest part of being an ESL. You can't use 5 symbols for 19 syllables and call it a day. Ideally people would use Shavian[1] or some other system that kinda matches 1:1 with the language. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

by knolax 7y ago

Pxtl 7y ago

Well, it's hard to deny that life is easier for people using English-compatible writing systems. No trouble with physical keyboards, anglophones can take a stab at pronouncing things, and a lot of older computer technology predates modern unicode and nobody seems to be in a rush to replace it.

knolax 7y ago
I'd have to disagree at least in the context of computers. > No trouble with physical keyboards I've seen comments on HN before about how certain characters used for programming aren't on keyboards with European layouts, supposedly creating a barrier for beginner programmers. In contrast, somebody using a keyboard for one of the CJK languages only needs to press shift to type all the characters in Basic Latin because the physical layouts are the same. > lot of older computer technology predates modern unicode and nobody seems to be in a rush to replace it. There are probably way more computers that only support Shift JIS than computers that only use ASCII. I heard that apparently lack of support for Unicode is still a problem in certain Japanese offices. I think the most dangerous position to be in is when your writing system is similar to but not exactly the same as English, in which case people begin to adopt a "close enough" attitude and accept the status quo, choosing instead to change their orthography in counterproductive ways to fit ephemeral technical requirements.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > somebody using a keyboard for one of the CJK languages only needs to press shift to type all the characters in Basic Latin because the physical layouts are the same The keyboards you buy in China (the C in CJK) are the same ones you'd buy in the US. They don't have their own. This makes sense, since character input is done in software; there is no way to map physical keys to the much much larger inventory of characters.
  - knolax 7y ago
    Yes Mainland China generally uses ANSI or ISO but Taiwanese keyboards usually have labels for bopomofo and Cangjie[0] while having the same physical layout as a US keyboard. [0] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_Taiwanese_Keyboard_Layout.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_Taiwanese_K...
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> anglophones can take a stab at pronouncing things How is this supposed to help anyone? That anglophone guess isn't going to be close to correct -- in the general case, it's unlikely to even be recognizable.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  Well, it makes things easier for (many) tourists. Trying to hold the characters for a novel script in my head is tremendously more difficult than holding the letters for a new language that use Latin characters.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - knolax 7y ago
    You can still transliterate into English without overhauling your entire orthography.
- astrodust 7y ago
  Portuguese uses Latin letters, but good luck pronouncing even half the words correctly without a lot of practice.
  - _delirium 7y ago
    True, though foreigners who can read the Latin script can at least recognize names on Portuguese signs, which helps with getting around (as long as you don't have to speak the name out loud). That's half the reason Greece provides Latin names on signs everywhere. With a sign that says "Χανιά | Chania", your average foreigner isn't going to pronounce it correctly either way (the "ch" is supposed to be like "loch", not like "chess"), but at least with a Latin version appended they're more likely to find where they're going.
mFixman 7y ago
The Latin alphabet is actually a terrible way to write English, and guessing how to pronounce words is the hardest part of being an ESL. You can't use 5 symbols for 19 syllables and call it a day. Ideally people would use Shavian[1] or some other system that kinda matches 1:1 with the language. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet