7 ms·

Contrarian perspective here: English is not my first language, but I have come to deeply appreciate the idea of a common language that people share so that we

by zarro 7y ago

Contrarian perspective here: English is not my first language, but I have come to deeply appreciate the idea of a common language that people share so that we can all work together regardless of where in the world we are. Knowing more than one language adds lots of value, because each language offers different modes of thinking and conception. But also having one common language adds an insane amount of value, because now you can both win by having the capability to exchange ideas with people that otherwise might not happen and the opportunity cost is unpredictable. (Example - German and Japanese teams use a universal language as a common language to work together on a groundbreaking energy project. That collaboration might not have otherwise happened due to language barriers. But if both parties learn a "Universal language" as a collaborative base, we can all gain advantage from that product of that win-win scenario. )

haolez 7y ago
The author wasn’t arguing against a common language. He was arguing against English being that language.
- lyjackal 7y ago
  Hmm? Didn't sound like he was arguing that point (ship has sailed). Just reminding people that learning languages is hard, and that we also need a common dialect for the common language.
  - mdpye 7y ago
    If I read correctly, antirez's biggest complaint is English orthography (the way the spelling maps to the pronunciation - or doesn't, in the case of English!) There's a secondary thread about native speakers being useless at adjusting their language to simplified English when talking to people for whom it is a second language. IME, that's something most people only learn to do when they learn a second language themselves.
gpderetta 7y ago
> I have come to deeply appreciate the idea of a common language that people share so that we can all work together regardless of where in the world we are. It seems to me that antirez strongly agrees with that. He mostly has issues with English as a verbal communication medium.
bluGill 7y ago
I think he agrees: a common language is good. However English is a horrible choice because it is so difficult. I'm a native English speaker, even though picking a different language would be worse for me I still agree English is a bad choice. Maybe if we reform our spelling we could improve - maybe.
- zorked 7y ago
  As we all know, English is the hardest language, except for all the others.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  What's your suggested alternative?
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Spanish. A lot of people speak it already (a big bonus), and the spelling and grammar are reasonable. However I have no particular attachment to it, so if you get traction arguing for a different one I'll be fine with that.
    - narag 7y ago
      Native here. What most extrangers complain about is verbs. For every verb there are a hundred forms and most used verbs are irregular, so you need to learn dozens of exceptional forms. We learn all those when we're children so it's not painful, for new learners... The rest is very easy, specially pronuntiation, that is a terrible for English, with so many vowels. Currently Spanish is the second most spoken language, after Chinese. But English is still first second laguage for most people.
      - bluGill 7y ago
        I agree. Spanish is not perfect. It is the best alternative that I personally know of though (outside of constructed languages, which have other problems)
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
If we want to select a common language, we should do so based on the criteria that said language is, first and foremost, easy to learn regardless of which language is the student's native language. I contend that no naturally evolved language has this property, which is to be expected since languages are living things with long and complicated histories. Therefore the obvious solution would be to construct a language with the properties we desire. The difficulty would be in keeping it from evolving on its own and just becoming as complicated as the rest of them.
- drchewbacca 7y ago
  > If we want to select a common language I think you're making an assumption that there is some central authority that has the power to make this selection on behalf of everyone. I think the reality is that each person is making language learning choices based on their own utility. It's a network effect situation where everyone wants to learn the most popular language. English is ahead for historical reasons but that is enough.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    I guess what I'm saying is maybe in an increasingly global society we should purposefully select a common language. English is de-facto today for historical reasons, but its difficulty is creating inefficiencies we could do without.
- narag 7y ago
  If we want to select a common language... We don't select a common language. English is the common language because of many historical reasons.
zarro 7y ago
REPLY TO ALL: No one "picks" a universal language. Is spontaneous chosen when people adopt because it drives the most value for them. Its not the end-all that English is that language, but I think its fair to say that anywhere in the world atm English might be the closest to a "universal language". I for one would rather stick to English, until a better alternative "proves" itself in the "marketplace of ideas". As for the main argument about the phonetics, I think most languages have this problem, for instance in Germany every region has its own nuance and dialect, but the common one is "High German". Same thing in English, and I would argue (even as an American) that our common version is "RP English or BBC English". If you can speak in this dialect, not only will (almost) everyone understand you, but speaking it also comes with a hint of "Respect", as its not so easy/common to do. Is it not possible to consider that part of the English languages perceived disadvantages as a universal language could be also perceived as an indirect advantage? In that learning its grammar and structure is fairly easy (Barrier to entry is low), but perfecting the nuances of its depth in precision and pronunciation is fairly difficult.
- FrojoS 7y ago
  Marketplace of ideas? More like geopolitical power. The most reasonable scenario change at the moment would be a world dominated by China and then Mandarin becoming the new lingua franca. I wouldn’t bet on either of these events, but it seems plausible.
  - jgwil2 7y ago
    My perspective may be skewed as a Westerner, but it seems to me that the Chinese writing system is too difficult for it to be effective as a lingua franca. To be fair (and as the article points out) English has a lot of non-phonetic spellings, but you still only need to know 26 characters have some idea of how a word is pronounced. But you are right, if we were choosing a language based solely on its objective qualities, we would probably have to choose Spanish or something like Esperanto.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Please, no! I love the variation that allows a sense of place in a "common" language. I can just know where the character in a novel is from by their idioms: Is it "couldn't care less" or "could care less", "pavement" or "sidewalk", color or colour etc? It only fails when the author gets it wrong. It's disappointing that regional accents have homogenised somewhat from entirely national TV programming in a country that must have 50 regional terms for a bread roll. So long as we can understand each other, I delight hearing the more musical cadence of English from some non-native speakers, or the idioms of my Indian, Geordie, Scouse or Scots friends (OK, I confess it took me a little while to tune-in to full on "Weegie").
- Pete_D 7y ago
  > in a country that must have 50 regional terms for a bread roll. This is so controversial that some regions have propaganda music videos about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O98qd7-dAaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O98qd7-dAaU

by zarro 7y ago

haolez 7y ago

The author wasn’t arguing against a common language. He was arguing against English being that language.

lyjackal 7y ago
Hmm? Didn't sound like he was arguing that point (ship has sailed). Just reminding people that learning languages is hard, and that we also need a common dialect for the common language.
- mdpye 7y ago
  If I read correctly, antirez's biggest complaint is English orthography (the way the spelling maps to the pronunciation - or doesn't, in the case of English!) There's a secondary thread about native speakers being useless at adjusting their language to simplified English when talking to people for whom it is a second language. IME, that's something most people only learn to do when they learn a second language themselves.

gpderetta 7y ago

> I have come to deeply appreciate the idea of a common language that people share so that we can all work together regardless of where in the world we are. It seems to me that antirez strongly agrees with that. He mostly has issues with English as a verbal communication medium.

bluGill 7y ago

I think he agrees: a common language is good. However English is a horrible choice because it is so difficult. I'm a native English speaker, even though picking a different language would be worse for me I still agree English is a bad choice. Maybe if we reform our spelling we could improve - maybe.

zorked 7y ago
As we all know, English is the hardest language, except for all the others.
dredmorbius 7y ago
What's your suggested alternative?
- bluGill 7y ago
  Spanish. A lot of people speak it already (a big bonus), and the spelling and grammar are reasonable. However I have no particular attachment to it, so if you get traction arguing for a different one I'll be fine with that.
  - narag 7y ago
    Native here. What most extrangers complain about is verbs. For every verb there are a hundred forms and most used verbs are irregular, so you need to learn dozens of exceptional forms. We learn all those when we're children so it's not painful, for new learners... The rest is very easy, specially pronuntiation, that is a terrible for English, with so many vowels. Currently Spanish is the second most spoken language, after Chinese. But English is still first second laguage for most people.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      I agree. Spanish is not perfect. It is the best alternative that I personally know of though (outside of constructed languages, which have other problems)

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

If we want to select a common language, we should do so based on the criteria that said language is, first and foremost, easy to learn regardless of which language is the student's native language. I contend that no naturally evolved language has this property, which is to be expected since languages are living things with long and complicated histories. Therefore the obvious solution would be to construct a language with the properties we desire. The difficulty would be in keeping it from evolving on its own and just becoming as complicated as the rest of them.

drchewbacca 7y ago
> If we want to select a common language I think you're making an assumption that there is some central authority that has the power to make this selection on behalf of everyone. I think the reality is that each person is making language learning choices based on their own utility. It's a network effect situation where everyone wants to learn the most popular language. English is ahead for historical reasons but that is enough.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  I guess what I'm saying is maybe in an increasingly global society we should purposefully select a common language. English is de-facto today for historical reasons, but its difficulty is creating inefficiencies we could do without.
narag 7y ago
If we want to select a common language... We don't select a common language. English is the common language because of many historical reasons.

zarro 7y ago

REPLY TO ALL: No one "picks" a universal language. Is spontaneous chosen when people adopt because it drives the most value for them. Its not the end-all that English is that language, but I think its fair to say that anywhere in the world atm English might be the closest to a "universal language". I for one would rather stick to English, until a better alternative "proves" itself in the "marketplace of ideas". As for the main argument about the phonetics, I think most languages have this problem, for instance in Germany every region has its own nuance and dialect, but the common one is "High German". Same thing in English, and I would argue (even as an American) that our common version is "RP English or BBC English". If you can speak in this dialect, not only will (almost) everyone understand you, but speaking it also comes with a hint of "Respect", as its not so easy/common to do. Is it not possible to consider that part of the English languages perceived disadvantages as a universal language could be also perceived as an indirect advantage? In that learning its grammar and structure is fairly easy (Barrier to entry is low), but perfecting the nuances of its depth in precision and pronunciation is fairly difficult.

FrojoS 7y ago
Marketplace of ideas? More like geopolitical power. The most reasonable scenario change at the moment would be a world dominated by China and then Mandarin becoming the new lingua franca. I wouldn’t bet on either of these events, but it seems plausible.
- jgwil2 7y ago
  My perspective may be skewed as a Westerner, but it seems to me that the Chinese writing system is too difficult for it to be effective as a lingua franca. To be fair (and as the article points out) English has a lot of non-phonetic spellings, but you still only need to know 26 characters have some idea of how a word is pronounced. But you are right, if we were choosing a language based solely on its objective qualities, we would probably have to choose Spanish or something like Esperanto.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

Please, no! I love the variation that allows a sense of place in a "common" language. I can just know where the character in a novel is from by their idioms: Is it "couldn't care less" or "could care less", "pavement" or "sidewalk", color or colour etc? It only fails when the author gets it wrong. It's disappointing that regional accents have homogenised somewhat from entirely national TV programming in a country that must have 50 regional terms for a bread roll. So long as we can understand each other, I delight hearing the more musical cadence of English from some non-native speakers, or the idioms of my Indian, Geordie, Scouse or Scots friends (OK, I confess it took me a little while to tune-in to full on "Weegie").

Pete_D 7y ago
> in a country that must have 50 regional terms for a bread roll. This is so controversial that some regions have propaganda music videos about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O98qd7-dAaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O98qd7-dAaU