4 ms·

It never ceases to amaze how malicious manufacturers can get, installing so many anti-features, without breaking some law and going to jail. Imagine if a real-

by deogeo 7y ago

It never ceases to amaze how malicious manufacturers can get, installing so many anti-features, without breaking some law and going to jail. Imagine if a real-estate agent kept breaking into houses he sold (through extra doors only he has the key to), and when people complained, he'd point to some fine print on page 23 of a contract you didn't even sign - it was just posted on the door, after you bought the house, stating that entering the house constitutes agreement. There'd be a million laws against it in a heartbeat.

1f60c 7y ago
I get your point and I agree with you, but to be fair, spotting a physical backdoor would be a little easier than a software one, and I think that’s why there are no laws against it—people have no idea this is happening.
- deogeo 7y ago
  But once those backdoors are found and reported, nothing happens. Unless you're a regular schmuck who 'hacks' by guessing a URL - then you get raided by the FBI and do hard jail time [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev#AT&T_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev#AT&T_data_breach
userbinator 7y ago
Even companies that used to be considered trusted by most people are doing it --- just look at Windows 10 for example... full of ads and telemetry which are nearly impossible to disable, thanks to that backdoor known as "Windows Update" which can easily revert all your changes (and is itself Hydra-like to disable.)
lr4444lr 7y ago
Until data storage becomes recognized legally as a kind of real property, your outrage won't matter. Most law is concerned only with computers as an extension of simpler technology, and the data as IP. There isn't any concept of people's "lives" being on these devices.
- deogeo 7y ago
  There's already lots of laws against breaking into computer systems - they just don't get applied if the one doing the breaking-in made the device.
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  Your outrage won't matter once a law even does exist. Do you really think China is going to give a shit about some Western law? Lol.
  - codedokode 7y ago
    And in my case the backdoor (Cosiloon) wouldn't do anything if the tablet was in China (don't remember how it detected the country, maybe by IP address or language).
- javajosh 7y ago
  IANAL, but I've always wondered if one good way to approach this is as a "micro-theft" of user resources. Specifically, network bandwidth, battery capacity, and screen size. An additional theft, which is your attention, can also be priced according to "the market", and indeed, if an ad obscures another sites ad then there is, in fact, another (large) set of people the manufacturer is stealing from. Moreover, that last class of people have some powerful advocates in the way of the networks, to wit, Google. But this theft is less straight-forward, I think. I would argue that the most important theft, which is your right to be secure in your computer mediated dealings, is hardest to argue. But that's there, too. It's entirely possible that this theory has already been tested, and lost, in US courts.
  - shostack 7y ago
    Without touching on legality of such things, it's interesting also in that these things probably have have a very clear record dollar amounts involved for such an act in terms of revenue generated, CPMs for ads, etc. This scene from Office Space comes to mind.[1] [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjCQ3T5yXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjCQ3T5yXo
milankragujevic 7y ago
It is illegal and does break laws, but the enforcement of laws is very selective, and is usually limited to a single device. So, even if you were to sue the manufacturer, and win the case, the worst that can happen to the manufacturer is a slap on the wrist fine and the device being barred from selling in that country. Which is ridiculous because devices are sold for a few months, the cheaper ones even less, and are quickly replaced by newer models. The fines are offset by the revenue in selling user data and also direct payment for inclusion of third-party apps in the phone's OS image.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > the worst that can happen to the manufacturer is a slap on the wrist fine Maybe that's the worst that does happen, but, when an individual hacks someone, they do jail time.
agumonkey 7y ago
I'm more impressed in how much effort they do and money they spent to be able to put ads.
gowld 7y ago
Amazon sells a Kindle with ads on the lockscreen. Is that malicious?

by deogeo 7y ago

1f60c 7y ago

I get your point and I agree with you, but to be fair, spotting a physical backdoor would be a little easier than a software one, and I think that’s why there are no laws against it—people have no idea this is happening.

deogeo 7y ago
But once those backdoors are found and reported, nothing happens. Unless you're a regular schmuck who 'hacks' by guessing a URL - then you get raided by the FBI and do hard jail time [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev#AT&T_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weev#AT&T_data_breach

userbinator 7y ago

Even companies that used to be considered trusted by most people are doing it --- just look at Windows 10 for example... full of ads and telemetry which are nearly impossible to disable, thanks to that backdoor known as "Windows Update" which can easily revert all your changes (and is itself Hydra-like to disable.)

lr4444lr 7y ago

Until data storage becomes recognized legally as a kind of real property, your outrage won't matter. Most law is concerned only with computers as an extension of simpler technology, and the data as IP. There isn't any concept of people's "lives" being on these devices.

deogeo 7y ago
There's already lots of laws against breaking into computer systems - they just don't get applied if the one doing the breaking-in made the device.
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
Your outrage won't matter once a law even does exist. Do you really think China is going to give a shit about some Western law? Lol.
- codedokode 7y ago
  And in my case the backdoor (Cosiloon) wouldn't do anything if the tablet was in China (don't remember how it detected the country, maybe by IP address or language).
javajosh 7y ago
IANAL, but I've always wondered if one good way to approach this is as a "micro-theft" of user resources. Specifically, network bandwidth, battery capacity, and screen size. An additional theft, which is your attention, can also be priced according to "the market", and indeed, if an ad obscures another sites ad then there is, in fact, another (large) set of people the manufacturer is stealing from. Moreover, that last class of people have some powerful advocates in the way of the networks, to wit, Google. But this theft is less straight-forward, I think. I would argue that the most important theft, which is your right to be secure in your computer mediated dealings, is hardest to argue. But that's there, too. It's entirely possible that this theory has already been tested, and lost, in US courts.
- shostack 7y ago
  Without touching on legality of such things, it's interesting also in that these things probably have have a very clear record dollar amounts involved for such an act in terms of revenue generated, CPMs for ads, etc. This scene from Office Space comes to mind.[1] [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjCQ3T5yXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjCQ3T5yXo

milankragujevic 7y ago

It is illegal and does break laws, but the enforcement of laws is very selective, and is usually limited to a single device. So, even if you were to sue the manufacturer, and win the case, the worst that can happen to the manufacturer is a slap on the wrist fine and the device being barred from selling in that country. Which is ridiculous because devices are sold for a few months, the cheaper ones even less, and are quickly replaced by newer models. The fines are offset by the revenue in selling user data and also direct payment for inclusion of third-party apps in the phone's OS image.

deogeo 7y ago
> the worst that can happen to the manufacturer is a slap on the wrist fine Maybe that's the worst that does happen, but, when an individual hacks someone, they do jail time.

agumonkey 7y ago

I'm more impressed in how much effort they do and money they spent to be able to put ads.

gowld 7y ago

Amazon sells a Kindle with ads on the lockscreen. Is that malicious?