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Sure. But social justice activists aren't unique in that. What puzzles me greatly is how differently things are developing online vs in meatspace. Maybe it's j

Sure. But social justice activists aren't unique in that. What puzzles me greatly is how differently things are developing online vs in meatspace. Maybe it's just an urban vs rural dynamic.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
They aren't, though they seem to be most successful at it currently. To me, this phenomenon feels like a memetic equivalent of transplanting a species into a perfect niche far away from home, where it faces no predators or restrictions, so it's free to grow extremely fast. It usually ends up with it devastating the new ecosystem it was introduced to. I think the difference is made by the medium. In any meatspace population, most quirks and beliefs are close to normally distributed. You have to deal with people who are different from you in many dimensions. The cost of associating and forming groups is high. On-line, all differences except those a person is willing to express themselves are masked by default, the cost of associating and forming groups is near-zero. Any group that finds purchase in their attempts at gaining influence can very quickly exploit it. What I'm not sure about is why gender and race, and not religion. It would seem that religion was the original hot topic on the Internet, but we've managed to develop ways of dealing with the issue in both meatspace and on-line. Then again, maybe it's because the way we did it was to stick to the letter of old anti-religion-discrimination laws, but otherwise marginalize the religious - if you bring religion to a discussion you're by default "in the wrong", the same way that when you bring race or gender identity to a discussion, you're somehow by default "in the right".
- mirimir 7y ago
  Yes, they're most successful at it online. And from what I read, on many university campuses. But notwithstanding the historic election of President Obama, things aren't looking at all well for them in meatspace. I get what you say about the ease of community building online. But online, all you can do is talk. And yes, frighten people who are managing online communities. In meatspace, however, you can vote. Without otherwise revealing what you support. And you can also game the process through gerrymandering, challenging voters, and so on. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple decades. Especially in light of the surprises that climate change may bring. Such as perhaps millions of immigrants coming north as drought reduces agricultural productivity.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > Yes, they're most successful at it online. And from what I read, on many university campuses. Which correlates with what I've observed: they're all young. I don't think I've seen a social justice activist older than 30-35. I wonder why that may be? > It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple decades. Especially in light of the surprises that climate change may bring. Such as perhaps millions of immigrants coming north as drought reduces agricultural productivity. Interesting, yes, but it's the flavor of "interesting" that scares the hell out of me. Dealing with climate issues requires cooperation, and it seems that in spite of all the social and technological advancements we've made, we're at historical low point of humanity's ability to coordinate.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      They're mostly young because change is accelerating so fast that few older people remain outliers. I used to consider myself a social justice activist. A few decades ago. It scares the hell out of me too.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Huh, didn't consider that angle - that changes happen so fast that your cause can fall out of the public consciousness within a decade or three. Thanks.
        mirimir 7y ago
        I meant that, regarding social justice, my position has become too close to the norm for me to be accepted as an activist. By activists, I mean. But by many civilians, sure.
    - pdonis 7y ago
      > we're at historical low point of humanity's ability to coordinate I don't think this is true. We humans have never been good at solving coordination problems on scales larger than the family or the tribe. I don't think the present is any worse in that respect. What's different about the present is that instant global communication has made billions of people aware of huge differences among humans along many dimensions, that previously were only known to those who were able to travel extensively. But I think it's an error to translate much increased knowledge of those differences into much increased coordination problems. Virtually all of these "problems" would be solved if people would just let each other alone when interaction was not necessary.

Sure. But social justice activists aren't unique in that. What puzzles me greatly is how differently things are developing online vs in meatspace. Maybe it's just an urban vs rural dynamic.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

They aren't, though they seem to be most successful at it currently. To me, this phenomenon feels like a memetic equivalent of transplanting a species into a perfect niche far away from home, where it faces no predators or restrictions, so it's free to grow extremely fast. It usually ends up with it devastating the new ecosystem it was introduced to. I think the difference is made by the medium. In any meatspace population, most quirks and beliefs are close to normally distributed. You have to deal with people who are different from you in many dimensions. The cost of associating and forming groups is high. On-line, all differences except those a person is willing to express themselves are masked by default, the cost of associating and forming groups is near-zero. Any group that finds purchase in their attempts at gaining influence can very quickly exploit it. What I'm not sure about is why gender and race, and not religion. It would seem that religion was the original hot topic on the Internet, but we've managed to develop ways of dealing with the issue in both meatspace and on-line. Then again, maybe it's because the way we did it was to stick to the letter of old anti-religion-discrimination laws, but otherwise marginalize the religious - if you bring religion to a discussion you're by default "in the wrong", the same way that when you bring race or gender identity to a discussion, you're somehow by default "in the right".

mirimir 7y ago
Yes, they're most successful at it online. And from what I read, on many university campuses. But notwithstanding the historic election of President Obama, things aren't looking at all well for them in meatspace. I get what you say about the ease of community building online. But online, all you can do is talk. And yes, frighten people who are managing online communities. In meatspace, however, you can vote. Without otherwise revealing what you support. And you can also game the process through gerrymandering, challenging voters, and so on. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple decades. Especially in light of the surprises that climate change may bring. Such as perhaps millions of immigrants coming north as drought reduces agricultural productivity.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > Yes, they're most successful at it online. And from what I read, on many university campuses. Which correlates with what I've observed: they're all young. I don't think I've seen a social justice activist older than 30-35. I wonder why that may be? > It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple decades. Especially in light of the surprises that climate change may bring. Such as perhaps millions of immigrants coming north as drought reduces agricultural productivity. Interesting, yes, but it's the flavor of "interesting" that scares the hell out of me. Dealing with climate issues requires cooperation, and it seems that in spite of all the social and technological advancements we've made, we're at historical low point of humanity's ability to coordinate.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    They're mostly young because change is accelerating so fast that few older people remain outliers. I used to consider myself a social justice activist. A few decades ago. It scares the hell out of me too.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Huh, didn't consider that angle - that changes happen so fast that your cause can fall out of the public consciousness within a decade or three. Thanks.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        I meant that, regarding social justice, my position has become too close to the norm for me to be accepted as an activist. By activists, I mean. But by many civilians, sure.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > we're at historical low point of humanity's ability to coordinate I don't think this is true. We humans have never been good at solving coordination problems on scales larger than the family or the tribe. I don't think the present is any worse in that respect. What's different about the present is that instant global communication has made billions of people aware of huge differences among humans along many dimensions, that previously were only known to those who were able to travel extensively. But I think it's an error to translate much increased knowledge of those differences into much increased coordination problems. Virtually all of these "problems" would be solved if people would just let each other alone when interaction was not necessary.