6 ms·

yea these pronouns affect like 0.01% of people but go ahead and worry about them instead of everyone else and youll ruin every community when are people gonna

yea these pronouns affect like 0.01% of people but go ahead and worry about them instead of everyone else and youll ruin every community when are people gonna figure out that you cant make everyone happy and the people who whine about pronouns wont ever stop nice downvotes lol, cant handle the truth?

Pfhreak 7y ago
Pronouns affect most people. Most people use them. If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. That's roughly one in thirty to one in a hundred people. That puts it at about the roughly same numbers as the number of redheads. It's uncommon, sure, but it's not totally minuscule. Trans folks are also one of the most likely (if not the most likely) minorities to suffer physical violence just for who they are. All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  no its not basic respect, stop making it so dramatic theyre not talking about any specific person are they? no, they want to change all the examples to be gender neutral. why? when people hear Bob they think He. they dont ask "well what if bob is trans?"
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- roenxi 7y ago
  > All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets. Well no, that is the entire reason the situation isn't an open-and-shut-nothing-to-see-here non-controversy. The other 97-99% of people go through life without ever particularly asserting that a specific personal pronoun needs to be used for them. They'll get antsy if someone is trying to insult them, but it looks a lot like the insult matters more than the pronoun. That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like? An identity is in the hands of the community. Asserting control is actually highly unusual, transexual or otherwise, and goes beyond the bounds of routine politeness. The issue is that there is an activist minority (who may or may not be part of the trans community) who want to force people to talk in a certain way. That is not basic politeness and respect. It is complicated and context specific - especially once people start getting sacked and excluded over it.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    > That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like? Yes? "Hey, I don't really like being called that." "Oh shit, sorry, didn't know." > That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender. > It is complicated and context specific It really, really isn't. If you are unsure, ask someone their pronouns. If you make a mistake, quickly apologize and move on. Literally end of story.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      ah no, when you get fired for these social justice rules then its a problem. sorry you think its so simple because if it was then there would never be any issues would there? you cant force people to say things even though they'll probably use what you tell them because most people are nice. but were not going to change the rules for 99.9% of people and worry about preferred pronouns all the time in every little occasion just because someone exists who doesnt follow the normal pronouns
    - roenxi 7y ago
      > What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender. None of that is control, and it would be equivalent of a transsexual choosing their dress and appearance - which they already do. It isn't that these requests are unreasonable, it is simply that this is a situation that goes well beyond basic politeness. This is asking society to change how it uses language. And this change being achieved by bureaucratic fiat rather than because everyone thinks it is a good idea. It may or may not work out, but it just isn't basic politeness - there is real change being pushed here.
- khazhou 7y ago
  1-3% does not pass the sniff test. Way too high. A quick search gives the number 0.6% according to a 2016 study.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    That number is likely under-reported, and there has been a significant rise in the number of people who feel comfortable identifying in the past few years. A study performed in 2017 found that 2.7% (of roughly 80,000 surveyed) identified as trans or gender non-conforming: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/141/3/e20171683.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14... I've seen the numbers that range from ~1% (or a little under) to as much as 3%, like the study above.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      its not, its overreported. its trendy to change gender so people do it until theyre done with the phase. why do you think theres so many reports about people switching back and regretting their decision or going against their parents who forced them when they were younger?
    - khazhou 7y ago
      Gender non-conforming is a much wider net. This study you link of 9th and 11th graders, it is not surprising that a large percent (2.7% as you said) reported as trans or GNC. The original comment above stated "trans", though, not T+GNC.
      - pseudalopex 7y ago
        2.7% identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. The study just used narrow definitions of trans and GNC.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. Transgender Demographics: A Household Probability Sample of US Adults, 2014 American Journal of Public Health https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227939/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227939/ Transgender individuals made up 0.53% (95% confidence interval = 0.46, 0.61) of the population
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Health and Care Utilization of Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Youth: A Population-Based Study Pediatrics Journal https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/141/3/e20171683.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14... Participants included 2168 (2.7%) students who identified as TGNC and 78 761 (97.3%) students who identified as cisgender. There's a reason I give such a wide range. Maybe I should widen it to 0.5-3%, but I believe that in the past 5 years we've seen an increase in the number of people who feel comfortable with a trans or gender nonconforming identity.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      youth? yea you dont get to decide until youre an adult. this is just kids being forced into it by parents who want to follow some social justice trend and guess what there are 100s of these kids being treated for abuse and psychological damage now https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-youths-gender-surgery-wish-hadnt-says-head-advocacy-network.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-yo...
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Trans and Gender Non-Confirming != Trans Using that article as a source for trans population is like saying 40% of the US population are people of colour, therefore 40% of the US population is black.
      - pseudalopex 7y ago
        The TGNC group identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. Cis people with unusual gender expression didn't count.
- krzyk 7y ago
  A persons that have trouble distinguishing colors are ~10%, but I don't see websites having option to turn colors off and use black and white (it would be nice, but I won't make it a end of the world event). Or I don't see moderator discussions that referring to something as "red" or "green" is bad for color blind people. If one already uses gender neutral pronoun, it should be enough, if it is not, then that person is a jerk similar to e.g. someone that whats to be called a "sir" (as in "yes, sir").
damnyou 7y ago
If a community destroys itself over showing basic respect to a marginalized group, it probably shouldn't have existed at all.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  basic respect? you realize these are code examples that sometimes talk about people and use normal pronouns that everyone understands just fine? if theres a example with bob and alice and we say he and she, whats the problem? do we really need to be extra careful in case Bob in the example is trans? Like thats really a problem? this doesnt have anything to do with basic respect. its just people who want to control everyone else
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Yes, if Bob asks you to use they/them pronouns then you should use they/them pronouns for Bob, just like if they ask you to use the name Robert. Intentionally using the wrong name or pronouns for someone is disrespectful, and would be considered an HR violation in a California workplace.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      its just posts on the site not real people. chill. you need to realize context and not get all offended and when you let someone control what you can and cant say because of their feelings its gonna be a bad time. california is already eating itself. is that really what you want?
      - nfoz 7y ago
        None of this is about posts involving hypothetical people (like Alice&Bob in cryptography examples). You're the only one who thinks that. The topic is about when a real user asks that they be referred to with specific pronouns, and other people instead refer to them with different pronouns or avoid using gendered pronouns. This whole conversation is about real people.

Pfhreak 7y ago

Pronouns affect most people. Most people use them. If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. That's roughly one in thirty to one in a hundred people. That puts it at about the roughly same numbers as the number of redheads. It's uncommon, sure, but it's not totally minuscule. Trans folks are also one of the most likely (if not the most likely) minorities to suffer physical violence just for who they are. All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets.

anon12345690 7y ago
no its not basic respect, stop making it so dramatic theyre not talking about any specific person are they? no, they want to change all the examples to be gender neutral. why? when people hear Bob they think He. they dont ask "well what if bob is trans?"
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
roenxi 7y ago
> All they are asking for is the same basic level of respect and politeness that anyone else gets. Well no, that is the entire reason the situation isn't an open-and-shut-nothing-to-see-here non-controversy. The other 97-99% of people go through life without ever particularly asserting that a specific personal pronoun needs to be used for them. They'll get antsy if someone is trying to insult them, but it looks a lot like the insult matters more than the pronoun. That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like? An identity is in the hands of the community. Asserting control is actually highly unusual, transexual or otherwise, and goes beyond the bounds of routine politeness. The issue is that there is an activist minority (who may or may not be part of the trans community) who want to force people to talk in a certain way. That is not basic politeness and respect. It is complicated and context specific - especially once people start getting sacked and excluded over it.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  > That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity; have you ever seen someone trying to shake a nickname they don't particularly like? Yes? "Hey, I don't really like being called that." "Oh shit, sorry, didn't know." > That 99-97% of people don't really control their public identity What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender. > It is complicated and context specific It really, really isn't. If you are unsure, ask someone their pronouns. If you make a mistake, quickly apologize and move on. Literally end of story.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    ah no, when you get fired for these social justice rules then its a problem. sorry you think its so simple because if it was then there would never be any issues would there? you cant force people to say things even though they'll probably use what you tell them because most people are nice. but were not going to change the rules for 99.9% of people and worry about preferred pronouns all the time in every little occasion just because someone exists who doesnt follow the normal pronouns
  - roenxi 7y ago
    > What? Sure they do. They were clothing that puts them in a particular group. (Or do you feel you'd have a hard time identifying punks or businessmen?) Or they'll wear religious symbols. Or speak with an accent. Or carry a firearm. Or any number of other external identity markers beyond gender. None of that is control, and it would be equivalent of a transsexual choosing their dress and appearance - which they already do. It isn't that these requests are unreasonable, it is simply that this is a situation that goes well beyond basic politeness. This is asking society to change how it uses language. And this change being achieved by bureaucratic fiat rather than because everyone thinks it is a good idea. It may or may not work out, but it just isn't basic politeness - there is real change being pushed here.
khazhou 7y ago
1-3% does not pass the sniff test. Way too high. A quick search gives the number 0.6% according to a 2016 study.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  That number is likely under-reported, and there has been a significant rise in the number of people who feel comfortable identifying in the past few years. A study performed in 2017 found that 2.7% (of roughly 80,000 surveyed) identified as trans or gender non-conforming: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/141/3/e20171683.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14... I've seen the numbers that range from ~1% (or a little under) to as much as 3%, like the study above.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    its not, its overreported. its trendy to change gender so people do it until theyre done with the phase. why do you think theres so many reports about people switching back and regretting their decision or going against their parents who forced them when they were younger?
  - khazhou 7y ago
    Gender non-conforming is a much wider net. This study you link of 9th and 11th graders, it is not surprising that a large percent (2.7% as you said) reported as trans or GNC. The original comment above stated "trans", though, not T+GNC.
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      2.7% identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. The study just used narrow definitions of trans and GNC.
barry-cotter 7y ago
> If you are talking about trans people, it's estimated to be about 1-3% of people. Transgender Demographics: A Household Probability Sample of US Adults, 2014 American Journal of Public Health https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227939/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227939/ Transgender individuals made up 0.53% (95% confidence interval = 0.46, 0.61) of the population
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Health and Care Utilization of Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Youth: A Population-Based Study Pediatrics Journal https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/141/3/e20171683.full.pdf https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/14... Participants included 2168 (2.7%) students who identified as TGNC and 78 761 (97.3%) students who identified as cisgender. There's a reason I give such a wide range. Maybe I should widen it to 0.5-3%, but I believe that in the past 5 years we've seen an increase in the number of people who feel comfortable with a trans or gender nonconforming identity.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    youth? yea you dont get to decide until youre an adult. this is just kids being forced into it by parents who want to follow some social justice trend and guess what there are 100s of these kids being treated for abuse and psychological damage now https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-youths-gender-surgery-wish-hadnt-says-head-advocacy-network.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7541679/Hundreds-yo...
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Trans and Gender Non-Confirming != Trans Using that article as a source for trans population is like saying 40% of the US population are people of colour, therefore 40% of the US population is black.
    - pseudalopex 7y ago
      The TGNC group identified as transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, or unsure. Cis people with unusual gender expression didn't count.
krzyk 7y ago
A persons that have trouble distinguishing colors are ~10%, but I don't see websites having option to turn colors off and use black and white (it would be nice, but I won't make it a end of the world event). Or I don't see moderator discussions that referring to something as "red" or "green" is bad for color blind people. If one already uses gender neutral pronoun, it should be enough, if it is not, then that person is a jerk similar to e.g. someone that whats to be called a "sir" (as in "yes, sir").

damnyou 7y ago

If a community destroys itself over showing basic respect to a marginalized group, it probably shouldn't have existed at all.

anon12345690 7y ago
basic respect? you realize these are code examples that sometimes talk about people and use normal pronouns that everyone understands just fine? if theres a example with bob and alice and we say he and she, whats the problem? do we really need to be extra careful in case Bob in the example is trans? Like thats really a problem? this doesnt have anything to do with basic respect. its just people who want to control everyone else
- damnyou 7y ago
  Yes, if Bob asks you to use they/them pronouns then you should use they/them pronouns for Bob, just like if they ask you to use the name Robert. Intentionally using the wrong name or pronouns for someone is disrespectful, and would be considered an HR violation in a California workplace.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    its just posts on the site not real people. chill. you need to realize context and not get all offended and when you let someone control what you can and cant say because of their feelings its gonna be a bad time. california is already eating itself. is that really what you want?
    - nfoz 7y ago
      None of this is about posts involving hypothetical people (like Alice&Bob in cryptography examples). You're the only one who thinks that. The topic is about when a real user asks that they be referred to with specific pronouns, and other people instead refer to them with different pronouns or avoid using gendered pronouns. This whole conversation is about real people.