5 ms·

As asked: https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html

by xibalba 7y ago

moneywoes 7y ago
Is there a TLDR of what happened anywhere?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- peterkelly 7y ago
  Based on GP's link: Controversy over gender pronouns
- itake 7y ago
  Moderator got fired for wanting to not use pronouns at all, because they though preferred pronouns were confusing to non-native English speakers instead of preferred pronouns.
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was fired. I may have this wrong as I just skimmed the summary. Also it seems she had multiple disagreements on this front before.
  - ShamelessC 7y ago
    Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.
    - Buge 7y ago
      Monica wanted to write in a way such that she would never use the words "he", "she", or singular "they". Stack Exchange said it's not OK to write in a restricted way like that, the words must be used.
      - jolmg 7y ago
        As I understood it, Stack Exchange didn't say anything. They just fired her for asking.
        prepend 7y ago
        They said that by firing her.
    - patmcc 7y ago
      Yes, people will often find it offensive if you use "they" after asked to use "he" or "she". If someone says "I am a man, please use he/him for my pronouns" and you use 'they' - that would generally be considered at least odd, if not inappropriate. I don't think that means it's inappropriate to use "they" as the default if no other information exists though.
      - anon12345690 7y ago
        uh but using "they" as a neutral way to talk about anyone is just fine. people have been doing that for literally centuries, its called "singular they" this is all about people wanting to be outraged for no reason
        patmcc 7y ago
        "Singular they" is indeed well used, but it's not normally used when the gender of the person in question is explicitly known. If you use "they" for someone who has specifically said to you "please use the pronouns 'she/her' when referring to me", you are being rude, not neutral.
  - Buge 7y ago
    1 was fired. 73 then left in support of her.
fenwick67 7y ago
That is helpful, but still far from a couple paragraphs. Nobody owes me anything on this, but I am not taking the energy to parse through this and then SO's responses and then reread TFA to get an actual factual sequence of events here, which ultimately ended in someone losing their moderation status on a Q&A website. This probably comes off as really callous but honestly, Watergate or the Bay of Pigs or (more close to home) Stallman's resignation can be explained in a couple of sentences.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Buge 7y ago
  On a mod and employee chat group, they were discussing a new future code of conduct. One element said "You must use people's preferred pronouns if given". A mod (volunteer) (Monica) said "Is it OK if I never use any 3rd person singular pronouns?" She got no answer for a while and was then fired as a mod on Friday at 6pm less than 1 hour before before Shabbat and Rosh Hashana (she is Jewish and a mod of the Jewish Stack Exchange). Stack exchange published a note saying she broke the code of conduct. 73 other mods then either resigned or went inactive.
  - fenwick67 7y ago
    Thank you, if this is accurate it's perfect.
  - puzzledbythis 7y ago
    Could you please help me understand how this relates to Cellio's previous concerns in October 2018 about a problem with Twitter and customer support and moderation? Does that concern ( https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-talk-13bf3f90204f https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-ta... ) have anything to do with the pronoun code of conduct problem at issue here, or is it totally unrelated other than Cellio's involvement? I have to admit, having read Cellio's summary of the situation, I'm puzzled why "avoid using pronouns to refer to people where possible" would be a controversial view. If you use the wrong one, it may cause harm. If you use none at all, your interaction is more futureproof. For example, if I write about a person who feels comfortable being called "him" but the person later chooses to prefer being called "her", but if if I had avoided using "him" entirely in the first place, then I would never worry about having to retroactively edit or delete my writing to avoid harm.
zonidjan 7y ago
That is one side of the story. I'm quite certain there's another side to it, as with anything. (In fact, I'm quite certain there's many more sides to it, with all the people who have jumped on.)
wpietri 7y ago
Wow, the extreme vagueness there, the perfect conviction in their rightness. I have no idea what the actual situation was, but that kind of writing makes me deeply suspicious I'm not getting both sides.
khawkins 7y ago
Note that nearly every time communities begin discussing the authoritative forcing of community members to use "correct pronouns" in communications, it invariably ends in firings, resignations, and the community bitterly divided. It's ironic that certain social activists, who outwardly claim to be motivated by a desire for mutual respect and an acceptance by the community for diverse lifestyles, are so quick to destroy the reputations of those who show even the smallest hint of resistance to their demands. The type of respect they truly seek is that which comes from the fear of the consequences of anything less than total agreement.

As asked: https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html

moneywoes 7y ago

Is there a TLDR of what happened anywhere?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
peterkelly 7y ago
Based on GP's link: Controversy over gender pronouns
itake 7y ago
Moderator got fired for wanting to not use pronouns at all, because they though preferred pronouns were confusing to non-native English speakers instead of preferred pronouns.
ALittleLight 7y ago
Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was fired. I may have this wrong as I just skimmed the summary. Also it seems she had multiple disagreements on this front before.
- ShamelessC 7y ago
  Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.
  - Buge 7y ago
    Monica wanted to write in a way such that she would never use the words "he", "she", or singular "they". Stack Exchange said it's not OK to write in a restricted way like that, the words must be used.
    - jolmg 7y ago
      As I understood it, Stack Exchange didn't say anything. They just fired her for asking.
      - prepend 7y ago
        They said that by firing her.
  - patmcc 7y ago
    Yes, people will often find it offensive if you use "they" after asked to use "he" or "she". If someone says "I am a man, please use he/him for my pronouns" and you use 'they' - that would generally be considered at least odd, if not inappropriate. I don't think that means it's inappropriate to use "they" as the default if no other information exists though.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      uh but using "they" as a neutral way to talk about anyone is just fine. people have been doing that for literally centuries, its called "singular they" this is all about people wanting to be outraged for no reason
      - patmcc 7y ago
        "Singular they" is indeed well used, but it's not normally used when the gender of the person in question is explicitly known. If you use "they" for someone who has specifically said to you "please use the pronouns 'she/her' when referring to me", you are being rude, not neutral.
- Buge 7y ago
  1 was fired. 73 then left in support of her.

fenwick67 7y ago

That is helpful, but still far from a couple paragraphs. Nobody owes me anything on this, but I am not taking the energy to parse through this and then SO's responses and then reread TFA to get an actual factual sequence of events here, which ultimately ended in someone losing their moderation status on a Q&A website. This probably comes off as really callous but honestly, Watergate or the Bay of Pigs or (more close to home) Stallman's resignation can be explained in a couple of sentences.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Buge 7y ago
On a mod and employee chat group, they were discussing a new future code of conduct. One element said "You must use people's preferred pronouns if given". A mod (volunteer) (Monica) said "Is it OK if I never use any 3rd person singular pronouns?" She got no answer for a while and was then fired as a mod on Friday at 6pm less than 1 hour before before Shabbat and Rosh Hashana (she is Jewish and a mod of the Jewish Stack Exchange). Stack exchange published a note saying she broke the code of conduct. 73 other mods then either resigned or went inactive.
- fenwick67 7y ago
  Thank you, if this is accurate it's perfect.
- puzzledbythis 7y ago
  Could you please help me understand how this relates to Cellio's previous concerns in October 2018 about a problem with Twitter and customer support and moderation? Does that concern ( https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-talk-13bf3f90204f https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-ta... ) have anything to do with the pronoun code of conduct problem at issue here, or is it totally unrelated other than Cellio's involvement? I have to admit, having read Cellio's summary of the situation, I'm puzzled why "avoid using pronouns to refer to people where possible" would be a controversial view. If you use the wrong one, it may cause harm. If you use none at all, your interaction is more futureproof. For example, if I write about a person who feels comfortable being called "him" but the person later chooses to prefer being called "her", but if if I had avoided using "him" entirely in the first place, then I would never worry about having to retroactively edit or delete my writing to avoid harm.

zonidjan 7y ago

That is one side of the story. I'm quite certain there's another side to it, as with anything. (In fact, I'm quite certain there's many more sides to it, with all the people who have jumped on.)

wpietri 7y ago

Wow, the extreme vagueness there, the perfect conviction in their rightness. I have no idea what the actual situation was, but that kind of writing makes me deeply suspicious I'm not getting both sides.

khawkins 7y ago

Note that nearly every time communities begin discussing the authoritative forcing of community members to use "correct pronouns" in communications, it invariably ends in firings, resignations, and the community bitterly divided. It's ironic that certain social activists, who outwardly claim to be motivated by a desire for mutual respect and an acceptance by the community for diverse lifestyles, are so quick to destroy the reputations of those who show even the smallest hint of resistance to their demands. The type of respect they truly seek is that which comes from the fear of the consequences of anything less than total agreement.