15 ms·

I would love a nice couple paragraphs that said "here's what happened", otherwise taking any side in this is just taking shots in the dark, I'm basically readin

I would love a nice couple paragraphs that said "here's what happened", otherwise taking any side in this is just taking shots in the dark, I'm basically reading "certain events happened with a certain individual and that's not okay"

ukie 7y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21173643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21173643
decebalus1 7y ago
+1 I feel I should care about this but I don't believe it's worth investing the time to go through walls of text of 'he said' 'she said' biased explanations. I'm probably better off..
- anon12345690 7y ago
  how ironic lol, if you only knew that "he said" and "she said" is the whole problem because apparently you cant use pronouns anymore
  - koheripbal 7y ago
    ...it's also somehow offensive to either avoid using pronouns as well as inquiring about them. The only solution is apparently magic.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      nah the real solution is for 99.99% of society to ignore all the fake outrage about pronouns and get back to their lives
  - mthoms 7y ago
    Can you do us all a favour? Please stop incorrectly stating that the problem is with pronouns in general. It's been pointed out many, many times. The point of contention here deals with one person intentionally refusing to use the pronoun someone else has requested when addressing them. Notice the emphasis on the words "intentional" and "them". (To be clear, this comment in no way meant to justify S.O.'s horrendous handling of the situation)
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      no, because the problem is with pronouns theres nobody specific in the story. nobody requested a pronoun. if it was that simple then why would any of this happen? its cause this is about pronouns being a problem and people wanting to edit everything to be gender neutral to cater to the perpetually outraged
      - mthoms 7y ago
        You're plainly wrong. According to the "fired" mod herself, the issue is centered on SO's (soon to be introduced) policy of using preferred pronouns. See https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html > the company is changing the CoC to require use of preferred pronouns In other words, it's a policy whereby an individual may request to be addressed a certain way, and that request must be honoured. Nothing more. Nothing less. It sounds like you're the one generating false outrage. NB: It's not exactly clear how/if she violated anything, in fact, it sounds to me like she did nothing wrong. But that's not the point I'm making: The point is that everything stems from this new policy.
xibalba 7y ago
As asked: https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html
- moneywoes 7y ago
  Is there a TLDR of what happened anywhere?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - peterkelly 7y ago
    Based on GP's link: Controversy over gender pronouns
  - itake 7y ago
    Moderator got fired for wanting to not use pronouns at all, because they though preferred pronouns were confusing to non-native English speakers instead of preferred pronouns.
  - ALittleLight 7y ago
    Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was fired. I may have this wrong as I just skimmed the summary. Also it seems she had multiple disagreements on this front before.
    - ShamelessC 7y ago
      Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.
parsimo2010 7y ago
If you're not aware of the drama, then it really isn't meant for you. The following threads have some background (and dang has linked a few more threads leading up to these): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712 The tl;dr (but still pretty long) is that Stack Overflow instituted a new Code of Conduct that required the use of a person's [preferred] pronouns. This change in the Code of Conduct was well intentioned but some people took issue with how it was implemented without much community input. A mod (Monica Cellio) had some level-headed discussion/questions about writing in a gender neutral style vs. affirmatively using a person's pronouns. She was fired with basically no due process, and it's pretty clear that she wasn't being mean or intentionally violating the Code of Conduct. A bunch of other mods got upset with how she was fired and they quit. SO has now issued two non-apologies and is rushing out a new Code of Conduct with a short timeframe for feedback, which is almost sure to make more people angry- plus they haven't been very concrete about which, if any, mods will be getting their jobs back after this fiasco. I don't envy SO's position- they have to keep mods happy, but if they walk back their original CoC change they would be telling the entire LGBTQ+ community that they are valued less than a few mods. However, this is entirely SO's fault with the way they have handled things- including not firing a mod that used more hateful language which makes their enforcement of the CoC inconsistent- so don't feel too bad for them.
- hisnameismanuel 7y ago
  I understand your intention is positive, and I enjoyed the nuance of your post. As a member of the 'entire LGBTQ+ community', we're not monolithic, or even close to it. SO is the first mainstream website (at least in the circles I run in) that has even attempted this kind of thing. I'm willing to cut them a little slack as they navigate a topic which has been incredibly fraught.
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that rolling back to the old CoC would make every LGBTQ+ person feel unvalued. Everyone, regardless of community membership or not (you can probably tell that I'm struggling for appropriate language here), has differing levels of sensitivity to any issue. Some people are glad when others make an effort to do the right thing, others won't be pleased unless their individual needs are met 100%, and some are angry that society is moving in one direction and they can't be openly bigoted anymore. However, if you're looking at it from a policy perspective, rolling back the CoC or not can be viewed as a signal, which every person is free to interpret as they wish. This is probably going to be dependent on whether you like the changes or not (some LGBTQ+ people have spoken up and said that the changes to the CoC are actually harmful). My interpretation: rolling back the CoC signals that SO wants to go back to a point when the mods were happier, work things out with the mods from there (there are several other complaints the mods have), and that the LGBTQ+ issues take a backseat. Not rolling things back signals that SO wants the LGBTQ+ community to feel valued and included, but tells the mods that their complaints won't be dealt with the way that they want. I don't think it's possible for SO to send the message that everyone is valued equally- even if they say it their actions won't reflect it.
anon12345690 7y ago
apparently anything on the site like a code example that talks about people like Bob and Alice cant use He and She - because it might offend the 0.01% of people who think that everyone needs to state their pronouns. apparently even saying They isnt enough. its what happens when you give in to the tiny minority that will always complain about something
- je42 7y ago
  i think the disagreement is the trigger. It looks like the deeper issue is that the way how some SE people dealt with the disagreement has been causing a lot of pain and distrust.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    when 99.99% people agree then we dont really need new rules like its pretty simple, use it if someone asks but otherwise just stick with the defaults that everyone understands
- 1shooner 7y ago
  When would a mod use pronouns anyway? It seems like an edge case of an edge case, in terms of gross count of incidents.
  - alanbernstein 7y ago
    You might be underestimating how commonly Alice and Bob are used in algorithm explains.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    because using people in examples is really common to explain things? like saying "bob wants to save this to the database but he got an error" is pretty common and nobody has a problem because they know bob is a he the edge case is the people who get outraged that a fake example isnt gender neutral
  - mthoms 7y ago

ukie 7y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21173643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21173643

decebalus1 7y ago

+1 I feel I should care about this but I don't believe it's worth investing the time to go through walls of text of 'he said' 'she said' biased explanations. I'm probably better off..

anon12345690 7y ago
how ironic lol, if you only knew that "he said" and "she said" is the whole problem because apparently you cant use pronouns anymore
- koheripbal 7y ago
  ...it's also somehow offensive to either avoid using pronouns as well as inquiring about them. The only solution is apparently magic.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    nah the real solution is for 99.99% of society to ignore all the fake outrage about pronouns and get back to their lives
- mthoms 7y ago
  Can you do us all a favour? Please stop incorrectly stating that the problem is with pronouns in general. It's been pointed out many, many times. The point of contention here deals with one person intentionally refusing to use the pronoun someone else has requested when addressing them. Notice the emphasis on the words "intentional" and "them". (To be clear, this comment in no way meant to justify S.O.'s horrendous handling of the situation)
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    no, because the problem is with pronouns theres nobody specific in the story. nobody requested a pronoun. if it was that simple then why would any of this happen? its cause this is about pronouns being a problem and people wanting to edit everything to be gender neutral to cater to the perpetually outraged
    - mthoms 7y ago
      You're plainly wrong. According to the "fired" mod herself, the issue is centered on SO's (soon to be introduced) policy of using preferred pronouns. See https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html > the company is changing the CoC to require use of preferred pronouns In other words, it's a policy whereby an individual may request to be addressed a certain way, and that request must be honoured. Nothing more. Nothing less. It sounds like you're the one generating false outrage. NB: It's not exactly clear how/if she violated anything, in fact, it sounds to me like she did nothing wrong. But that's not the point I'm making: The point is that everything stems from this new policy.

xibalba 7y ago

As asked: https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2064709.html

moneywoes 7y ago
Is there a TLDR of what happened anywhere?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- peterkelly 7y ago
  Based on GP's link: Controversy over gender pronouns
- itake 7y ago
  Moderator got fired for wanting to not use pronouns at all, because they though preferred pronouns were confusing to non-native English speakers instead of preferred pronouns.
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  Seems like there was a disagreement regarding the use of gender pronouns that resulted in 73 moderators getting "fired" or leaving. The author of that summary mentioned one thing I found especially egregious, which is a policy that stated avoiding using pronouns was out of alignment. If I understand correctly, when she asked how they would know if she was avoiding pronouns or just naturally not writing them, she was fired. I may have this wrong as I just skimmed the summary. Also it seems she had multiple disagreements on this front before.
  - ShamelessC 7y ago
    Is the implication that the LGBTQ+ community found it _more_ offensive to use e.g. "they" than "he" or "she"? I'm so confused. Wouldn't "they" (the gender neutral version) be _more_ inclusive? Is there some other alternative that's even better that I haven't considered? I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking this. Just trying to make sure I understand.

parsimo2010 7y ago

If you're not aware of the drama, then it really isn't meant for you. The following threads have some background (and dang has linked a few more threads leading up to these): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712 The tl;dr (but still pretty long) is that Stack Overflow instituted a new Code of Conduct that required the use of a person's [preferred] pronouns. This change in the Code of Conduct was well intentioned but some people took issue with how it was implemented without much community input. A mod (Monica Cellio) had some level-headed discussion/questions about writing in a gender neutral style vs. affirmatively using a person's pronouns. She was fired with basically no due process, and it's pretty clear that she wasn't being mean or intentionally violating the Code of Conduct. A bunch of other mods got upset with how she was fired and they quit. SO has now issued two non-apologies and is rushing out a new Code of Conduct with a short timeframe for feedback, which is almost sure to make more people angry- plus they haven't been very concrete about which, if any, mods will be getting their jobs back after this fiasco. I don't envy SO's position- they have to keep mods happy, but if they walk back their original CoC change they would be telling the entire LGBTQ+ community that they are valued less than a few mods. However, this is entirely SO's fault with the way they have handled things- including not firing a mod that used more hateful language which makes their enforcement of the CoC inconsistent- so don't feel too bad for them.

hisnameismanuel 7y ago
I understand your intention is positive, and I enjoyed the nuance of your post. As a member of the 'entire LGBTQ+ community', we're not monolithic, or even close to it. SO is the first mainstream website (at least in the circles I run in) that has even attempted this kind of thing. I'm willing to cut them a little slack as they navigate a topic which has been incredibly fraught.
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that rolling back to the old CoC would make every LGBTQ+ person feel unvalued. Everyone, regardless of community membership or not (you can probably tell that I'm struggling for appropriate language here), has differing levels of sensitivity to any issue. Some people are glad when others make an effort to do the right thing, others won't be pleased unless their individual needs are met 100%, and some are angry that society is moving in one direction and they can't be openly bigoted anymore. However, if you're looking at it from a policy perspective, rolling back the CoC or not can be viewed as a signal, which every person is free to interpret as they wish. This is probably going to be dependent on whether you like the changes or not (some LGBTQ+ people have spoken up and said that the changes to the CoC are actually harmful). My interpretation: rolling back the CoC signals that SO wants to go back to a point when the mods were happier, work things out with the mods from there (there are several other complaints the mods have), and that the LGBTQ+ issues take a backseat. Not rolling things back signals that SO wants the LGBTQ+ community to feel valued and included, but tells the mods that their complaints won't be dealt with the way that they want. I don't think it's possible for SO to send the message that everyone is valued equally- even if they say it their actions won't reflect it.

anon12345690 7y ago

apparently anything on the site like a code example that talks about people like Bob and Alice cant use He and She - because it might offend the 0.01% of people who think that everyone needs to state their pronouns. apparently even saying They isnt enough. its what happens when you give in to the tiny minority that will always complain about something

je42 7y ago
i think the disagreement is the trigger. It looks like the deeper issue is that the way how some SE people dealt with the disagreement has been causing a lot of pain and distrust.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  when 99.99% people agree then we dont really need new rules like its pretty simple, use it if someone asks but otherwise just stick with the defaults that everyone understands
1shooner 7y ago
When would a mod use pronouns anyway? It seems like an edge case of an edge case, in terms of gross count of incidents.
- alanbernstein 7y ago
  You might be underestimating how commonly Alice and Bob are used in algorithm explains.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  because using people in examples is really common to explain things? like saying "bob wants to save this to the database but he got an error" is pretty common and nobody has a problem because they know bob is a he the edge case is the people who get outraged that a fake example isnt gender neutral
- mthoms 7y ago