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But perhaps not an appropriate response to scientific fact. Countless psychological studies have documented women's higher innate capacities for communication a

by sarkozy 16y ago

But perhaps not an appropriate response to scientific fact. Countless psychological studies have documented women's higher innate capacities for communication and empathy. So if you disagree on that fact, you are simply misinformed. What I'm saying might not be popular and might even sound prejudicial but there is no debating the innate genetic differences between men and women.

Cushman 16y ago
Really? Let's debate. Do you have a study documenting the case of a statistically significant number of children raised in an environment where every single other person isn't constantly treating them like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals? Because otherwise you're just redemonstrating the already well-documented fact that children tend to behave the way they are expected to behave, which doesn't tell us anything useful about genetics. Okay, that's a cheap shot. I know you don't have any such study. Tell you what, I'll settle for any study demonstrating that the divergence between the mean of all women and the mean of all men is greater than the divergence between individuals of either gender. In any metric.
- krakensden 16y ago
  Height?
  - Cushman 16y ago
    You'd be forgiven for thinking this is a cheap shot, but nope— Wikipedia lists the difference in mean height for Americans as about 5" (~5'10" for men, ~5'5" for women). If you get three guys together in a room, you've probably already got more variation than that. The general point here is that there is much, much more overlap between the sexes than there is difference between them. That's why although you certainly can make interesting statistical inferences about populations, applying the same statistics on an individual level (this person is a woman, she's probably [whatever]) is very likely to be false and is equivalent to blind prejudice.
    - krakensden 16y ago
      http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf Look at page 11. 19 year old women in the 90th percentile are still shorter than 19 year old men in the 50th percentile. Now, while I was never very good at statistics, I'm pretty sure if we had a running bet over who was taller in any random male/female pairing, I would drain your bank account dry.
- waqf 16y ago
  As far as I can tell, sarkozy doesn't have a study proving his point (or proving your straw-man version of his point) and you don't have a study proving yours. Now, why is it that you are entitled to an opinion and he is not?
  - Cushman 16y ago
    As far as I can tell, the person bringing up "countless psychological studies" has a responsibility to provide their own evidence. I have no problem with other people having opinions. I likewise have no problem with publicly disapproving of opinions which I think are socially harmful. I don't have any illusions about changing a bigot's mind, but I can hope that others will see my disapproval and think that bigotry is just that much less cool.
    - sarkozy 16y ago
      Why are you calling me a bigot? Is it possible you could find a less offensive way of engaging in this discussion? I would appreciate it. I also disagree with you, after all, but have not resorted to calling you names.
      - Cushman 16y ago
        I apologize— I didn't mean to call you a bigot personally, so although I do feel that sex prejudice is a very important and undervalued issue in our culture, I'll admit it was a poor choice of words. I was merely trying to elucidate the broader point that shaming can be appropriate in the case of "differences of opinion"— after all, bigotry is just the extremity of the belief that one's personal prejudice is well-grounded in fact. Of course I appreciate that you're willing to discuss this civilly, and I hope you'll forgive the hyperbole.
        sarkozy 16y ago
        Apology accepted. It's been an enjoyable discussion and I appreciate that you feel strongly about the issue.
- sarkozy 16y ago
  Let's start with this one: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04271.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
  - Cushman 16y ago
    What is that supposed to show? It's studying adults, so it can't and of course doesn't make any claims about genetics like you're trying to. I can only find one place with any information about individuals (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/nature04271_F3.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/natu...), but according to that one graph the difference among all men is more than twice the difference between the average of all men and the average of all women. Even the cultural implication isn't valuable for making statements about individuals. Doesn't really look like it answers either of my points.
    - sarkozy 16y ago
      It's one of many studies that demonstrate empirically that women are more empathic than men. My assumption is that the difference relates to genetics but what matters is that there is an observable difference that will have an impact in the real world - especially in the workplace - which is what this discussion is about.
      - Cushman 16y ago
        Found the supplemental PDF: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/extref/nature04271-s3.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/extref/natur... The second page has a graph of individuals by "empathic concern" (ignoring the brain activity axis, which is what the study is actually demonstrating...) Note that although women, on average, have higher scores than men (a mean difference of 2 on a scale of 1-20), almost half of the men have scores higher than the female average, and a quarter of the women have scores lower than the male average. In more intuitive terms, out of this sample of 16 men and 16 women, the 7 most empathic men were more empathic than the 8 least empathic women. If you were trying to guess how empathic someone you meet is based on their sex, you would do slightly better than just flipping a coin. From this you're getting that "women are more empathic"? Or are you using a slight statistical association to rationalize your cultural prejudice?
- axod 16y ago
  > like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals? Come on. There are countless studies that show the biological differences between the sexes and the way their brains work. It's not rocket science. If you believe in evolution, surely you believe that over time, the female and male brains have developed for different functions. I've never understood why people disbelieve this and try to pretend that the sexes are identical.
  - Cushman 16y ago
    I'm discussing one such study in a sibling thread. I'd be happy to do the same here if you have one you feel is persuasive.
    - axod 16y ago
      Show me a study that proves that men and women think in exactly the same ways and that there are no biological differences in their programming. I really can't understand how anyone who accepts evolution (Surely most people), but doesn't accept the idea that perhaps the female and male minds have evolved and optimized to different things. Given that we have obvious and numerous physical differences, it seems terribly unlikely that we have no mental differences. Especially given that physically and internally the sexes brains differ quite a lot (size, weight, number of neurons etc). For example: Number of neocortical neurons (females) = 19.3 billion (Pakkenberg, B., Pelvig, D., Marner,L., Bundgaard, M.J., Gundersen, H.J.G., Nyengaard, J.R. and Regeur, L. Aging and the human neocortex. Exp. Gerontology, 38:95-99, 2003 and Pakkenberg, B. and Gundersen, H.J.G. Neocortical neuron number in humans: effect of sex and age. J. Comp. Neurology, 384:312-320, 1997.) Number of neocortical neurons (males) = 22.8 billion (Pakkenberg et al., 1997; 2003) Males were traditionally hunters, which is why they have greater spacial abilities. Women were traditionally carers, which is why they have greater communicative and caring ability. This isn't cutting edge stuff. Look up the numerous studies. Look at the anecdotal evidence. I think that if you disagree with the above, there's no point continuing. It'd be like trying to argue with someone who denies evolution. I completely get that we should not discriminate UNFAIRLY based on any attribute of anyone. But to deny obvious differences that clearly exist is just silly.

by sarkozy 16y ago

Cushman 16y ago

Really? Let's debate. Do you have a study documenting the case of a statistically significant number of children raised in an environment where every single other person isn't constantly treating them like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals? Because otherwise you're just redemonstrating the already well-documented fact that children tend to behave the way they are expected to behave, which doesn't tell us anything useful about genetics. Okay, that's a cheap shot. I know you don't have any such study. Tell you what, I'll settle for any study demonstrating that the divergence between the mean of all women and the mean of all men is greater than the divergence between individuals of either gender. In any metric.

krakensden 16y ago
Height?
- Cushman 16y ago
  You'd be forgiven for thinking this is a cheap shot, but nope— Wikipedia lists the difference in mean height for Americans as about 5" (~5'10" for men, ~5'5" for women). If you get three guys together in a room, you've probably already got more variation than that. The general point here is that there is much, much more overlap between the sexes than there is difference between them. That's why although you certainly can make interesting statistical inferences about populations, applying the same statistics on an individual level (this person is a woman, she's probably [whatever]) is very likely to be false and is equivalent to blind prejudice.
  - krakensden 16y ago
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf Look at page 11. 19 year old women in the 90th percentile are still shorter than 19 year old men in the 50th percentile. Now, while I was never very good at statistics, I'm pretty sure if we had a running bet over who was taller in any random male/female pairing, I would drain your bank account dry.
waqf 16y ago
As far as I can tell, sarkozy doesn't have a study proving his point (or proving your straw-man version of his point) and you don't have a study proving yours. Now, why is it that you are entitled to an opinion and he is not?
- Cushman 16y ago
  As far as I can tell, the person bringing up "countless psychological studies" has a responsibility to provide their own evidence. I have no problem with other people having opinions. I likewise have no problem with publicly disapproving of opinions which I think are socially harmful. I don't have any illusions about changing a bigot's mind, but I can hope that others will see my disapproval and think that bigotry is just that much less cool.
  - sarkozy 16y ago
    Why are you calling me a bigot? Is it possible you could find a less offensive way of engaging in this discussion? I would appreciate it. I also disagree with you, after all, but have not resorted to calling you names.
    - Cushman 16y ago
      I apologize— I didn't mean to call you a bigot personally, so although I do feel that sex prejudice is a very important and undervalued issue in our culture, I'll admit it was a poor choice of words. I was merely trying to elucidate the broader point that shaming can be appropriate in the case of "differences of opinion"— after all, bigotry is just the extremity of the belief that one's personal prejudice is well-grounded in fact. Of course I appreciate that you're willing to discuss this civilly, and I hope you'll forgive the hyperbole.
      - sarkozy 16y ago
        Apology accepted. It's been an enjoyable discussion and I appreciate that you feel strongly about the issue.
sarkozy 16y ago
Let's start with this one: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04271.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
- Cushman 16y ago
  What is that supposed to show? It's studying adults, so it can't and of course doesn't make any claims about genetics like you're trying to. I can only find one place with any information about individuals (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/nature04271_F3.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/natu...), but according to that one graph the difference among all men is more than twice the difference between the average of all men and the average of all women. Even the cultural implication isn't valuable for making statements about individuals. Doesn't really look like it answers either of my points.
  - sarkozy 16y ago
    It's one of many studies that demonstrate empirically that women are more empathic than men. My assumption is that the difference relates to genetics but what matters is that there is an observable difference that will have an impact in the real world - especially in the workplace - which is what this discussion is about.
    - Cushman 16y ago
      Found the supplemental PDF: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/extref/nature04271-s3.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/extref/natur... The second page has a graph of individuals by "empathic concern" (ignoring the brain activity axis, which is what the study is actually demonstrating...) Note that although women, on average, have higher scores than men (a mean difference of 2 on a scale of 1-20), almost half of the men have scores higher than the female average, and a quarter of the women have scores lower than the male average. In more intuitive terms, out of this sample of 16 men and 16 women, the 7 most empathic men were more empathic than the 8 least empathic women. If you were trying to guess how empathic someone you meet is based on their sex, you would do slightly better than just flipping a coin. From this you're getting that "women are more empathic"? Or are you using a slight statistical association to rationalize your cultural prejudice?
axod 16y ago
> like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals? Come on. There are countless studies that show the biological differences between the sexes and the way their brains work. It's not rocket science. If you believe in evolution, surely you believe that over time, the female and male brains have developed for different functions. I've never understood why people disbelieve this and try to pretend that the sexes are identical.
- Cushman 16y ago
  I'm discussing one such study in a sibling thread. I'd be happy to do the same here if you have one you feel is persuasive.
  - axod 16y ago
    Show me a study that proves that men and women think in exactly the same ways and that there are no biological differences in their programming. I really can't understand how anyone who accepts evolution (Surely most people), but doesn't accept the idea that perhaps the female and male minds have evolved and optimized to different things. Given that we have obvious and numerous physical differences, it seems terribly unlikely that we have no mental differences. Especially given that physically and internally the sexes brains differ quite a lot (size, weight, number of neurons etc). For example: Number of neocortical neurons (females) = 19.3 billion (Pakkenberg, B., Pelvig, D., Marner,L., Bundgaard, M.J., Gundersen, H.J.G., Nyengaard, J.R. and Regeur, L. Aging and the human neocortex. Exp. Gerontology, 38:95-99, 2003 and Pakkenberg, B. and Gundersen, H.J.G. Neocortical neuron number in humans: effect of sex and age. J. Comp. Neurology, 384:312-320, 1997.) Number of neocortical neurons (males) = 22.8 billion (Pakkenberg et al., 1997; 2003) Males were traditionally hunters, which is why they have greater spacial abilities. Women were traditionally carers, which is why they have greater communicative and caring ability. This isn't cutting edge stuff. Look up the numerous studies. Look at the anecdotal evidence. I think that if you disagree with the above, there's no point continuing. It'd be like trying to argue with someone who denies evolution. I completely get that we should not discriminate UNFAIRLY based on any attribute of anyone. But to deny obvious differences that clearly exist is just silly.