5 ms·

RISC-V is, among other things, a single shining ray of hope that we might actually be able to build a truly secure computing platform from the ground up instead

RISC-V is, among other things, a single shining ray of hope that we might actually be able to build a truly secure computing platform from the ground up instead of the backdoor-riddled stacks we have today.

skybrian 7y ago
Maybe, but I don't see why vendors making RISC-V chips are inherently more trustworthy? There are lots of dodgy vendors building standardized parts. It seems like they'd be easy to counterfeit?
- DethNinja 7y ago
  We might hope that more competition will mean it will be harder to install backdoors but other than that there is no guarantees. Assuming that USA, Russia, and China are not hidden allies then we might be able to buy risc-v manufactured chips from other countries to prevent domestic spy agencies from accessing private data, but then there is no guarantee that USA, Russia, and China are not allies. Perhaps they share data with each other at similar capabilities to Five Eyes. At the worst case we got some open source chip design that will constantly evolve. Perhaps we might be able to print such CPU chips at home but that is decades away.
- traverseda 7y ago
  Could you use side-channel power analysis to ensure a chip is on-spec?
  - zaarn 7y ago
    No, the backdoor can use some activation mechanism on chip to avoid drawing power when not in use, then the additional power draw will be so low that it's essentially undetectable. Tbh you'd have a hard time since either you're trying to measure a few milliwatts in a very noisy environment (either very low wattage, so various effects dominate, or high wattage, where your equipment will quickly get very very expensive).
    - traverseda 7y ago
      I've worked with the chip-whisperer in the past, it's definitely a noisy environment.
- Symmetry 7y ago
  It does allow you to compare a chips behavior to what you'd expect from a public design. That's not something that just anyone can do. And if the design has a stage with a few FO4s of latency free and some unused silicon in the right place they could still put in a secret feature without anyone noticing. But it's got to be a pretty simple secret feature for it not to be obvious what's going on.
_nhynes 7y ago
For sure! I'm really looking forward to seeing production runs of https://keystone-enclave.org/ https://keystone-enclave.org/.

skybrian 7y ago

Maybe, but I don't see why vendors making RISC-V chips are inherently more trustworthy? There are lots of dodgy vendors building standardized parts. It seems like they'd be easy to counterfeit?

DethNinja 7y ago
We might hope that more competition will mean it will be harder to install backdoors but other than that there is no guarantees. Assuming that USA, Russia, and China are not hidden allies then we might be able to buy risc-v manufactured chips from other countries to prevent domestic spy agencies from accessing private data, but then there is no guarantee that USA, Russia, and China are not allies. Perhaps they share data with each other at similar capabilities to Five Eyes. At the worst case we got some open source chip design that will constantly evolve. Perhaps we might be able to print such CPU chips at home but that is decades away.
traverseda 7y ago
Could you use side-channel power analysis to ensure a chip is on-spec?
- zaarn 7y ago
  No, the backdoor can use some activation mechanism on chip to avoid drawing power when not in use, then the additional power draw will be so low that it's essentially undetectable. Tbh you'd have a hard time since either you're trying to measure a few milliwatts in a very noisy environment (either very low wattage, so various effects dominate, or high wattage, where your equipment will quickly get very very expensive).
  - traverseda 7y ago
    I've worked with the chip-whisperer in the past, it's definitely a noisy environment.
Symmetry 7y ago
It does allow you to compare a chips behavior to what you'd expect from a public design. That's not something that just anyone can do. And if the design has a stage with a few FO4s of latency free and some unused silicon in the right place they could still put in a secret feature without anyone noticing. But it's got to be a pretty simple secret feature for it not to be obvious what's going on.

_nhynes 7y ago

For sure! I'm really looking forward to seeing production runs of https://keystone-enclave.org/ https://keystone-enclave.org/.