5 ms·

The most interesting part to me is the chart that shows the cost per mile over time. The cost per mile went up about 20% from 1940 to 1988 and then tripled fro

The most interesting part to me is the chart that shows the cost per mile over time. The cost per mile went up about 20% from 1940 to 1988 and then tripled from 1988 to 2017 and doubled again by 2019. What caused this increase?

btown 7y ago
So one thing that's deceptive about that graph is that the projects are far from equal in per-mile complexity. The 1988 Jamaica extensions service a relatively sparsely populated area, with ready access for construction vehicles (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica%E2%80%93179th_Street_station#Entrances_and_exits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica%E2%80%93179th_Street_s... ) - by contrast, the proposed Manhattan projects in 2019 require much more engineering to route around limited access, preserve above-ground activities, and ensure reinforcement given large skyscrapers above. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway#Construction_methods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway#Construct... But there are certainly likely other factors. One might imagine that as alternative modes of transportation (ridesharing, etc.) become more commonplace, prices would go down in a competitive marketplace. But one might also imagine that established construction firms might see things like ridesharing (or other decreases in construction costs) as damaging to their long-term stability; they may therefore do things like lobby the city for increased regulations that would cause the proposed project to drag out even longer and provide increased financial stability to the firm. (An alternate read on this is that the firms are finally catching up to increased standards for labor and health, and this was not priced in in the past... but that's a very optimistic read.)
- dantheman 7y ago
  The big things are corruption, graft, and mismanagement.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    You know you have a lot of corruption and graft when you can't just pretend it's all mismanagement.
  - simplicio 7y ago
    Has corruption, graft and mismanagement increased so sharply over the last few decades? I don't picture, say, the NYC of Robert Moses as being particularly free of corruption and graft. And yet, they seem to have been able to build Subways much cheaper
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Defined benefit pensions are sucking up a lot of resources, as well as fire code/ADA related costs. I’m sure labor costs much more than in decades before, not just in construction, but in permitting and planning. As the years go on, projects with large liabilities have to go to extreme lengths to show they did their due diligence. Otherwise, it’s a ripe for a lawsuit that says “well you knew that risk existed and did nothing to prevent it” and pays out a few million taxpayer dollars.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      My working theory is graft and corruption can coexist with effective management of projects. I also have an impression that the US mostly stopped building infrastructure like subways which has various negative effects. Lack of experienced engineering oversight, lack of local engineering talent, no experienced workforce. Weak industrial capability and support. And milking to death any projects that do get through the approval process.
      - TylerE 7y ago
        Wonder how much of it is not treating workers like disposable things? Look at pictures of work crews back in the 30s and you see workers eating lunch - completely unharnessed - on exposed beams 100s of feet in the air. Deaths were common on large projects.
        simplicio 7y ago
        Better worker safety certainly accounts for some increase in costs. But US infrastructure costs aren't only high compared to the past, they're high compared to other modern developed countries. I don't think Spain, for example, is keeping their costs relatively low by treating their construction workers as cannon-fodder.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  Yes, I agree that seemed odd to ignore. The theory that loss of experience results in increasing costs sounds true, but I see nothing to back it up or any thought of alternate explanations. Like models that include economic impact I would expect to skyrocket the costs (in a total sense) when building in areas that get built up over time.
- namdnay 7y ago
  Why on earth would you want to encourage subway commuters to switch to ride sharing?! Ride sharing is a good intermediate solution, better than individual vehicles, but it still causes noise, pollution and traffic. We need to do everything we can to encourage people to avoid cars and adopt public transport
jcranmer 7y ago
There are several factors: * Labor costs and construction material costs have grown faster than inflation. * There are more amenities in subways (such as handicapped access in stations) now than 100 years ago, and new construction accounts for them from the beginning. * The underground infrastructure has become more crowded, which increases the number of pipes and the like that need to be relocated or avoided during construction. * Planning and permitting requirements have increased, so you need to spend money showing, e.g., that you aren't harming any migratory fowl resting areas, or ensuring that you can expeditiously evacuate the station in case of an emergency. * The agencies in charge have been doing worse and worse jobs at cost-control and project management. The proposed price tag of the second phase of the 2nd Avenue subway is absolutely ludicrous--and so far, the MTA's justification [1] for the insane cost premiums is "fire codes." Seriously. For 10× over, say, Paris Metro construction costs. The public really needs to take MTA and the New York state government to task for allowing that sort of bullshit to stand. [1] http://secondavenuesagas.com/2019/09/23/mta-officials-cite-fire-code-in-defending-6-billion-cost-for-phase-2-of-the-second-ave-subway/ http://secondavenuesagas.com/2019/09/23/mta-officials-cite-f...
- throwaway1777 7y ago
  How have labor costs gone up so much? Average subway workers haven’t recently started making a ton of money as far as I know, so is the money going to administration?
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    According to reports, there is massive fraud of people being paid a lot to literally do nothing.
    - oftenwrong 7y ago
      further reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... >An accountant discovered the discrepancy while reviewing the budget for new train platforms under Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan. >The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as part of a 3.5-mile tunnel connecting the historic station to the Long Island Rail Road. But the accountant could only identify about 700 jobs that needed to be done, according to three project supervisors. Officials could not find any reason for the other 200 people to be there. >“Nobody knew what those people were doing, if they were doing anything,” said Michael Horodniceanu, who was then the head of construction at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs transit in New York. The workers were laid off, Mr. Horodniceanu said, but no one figured out how long they had been employed. “All we knew is they were each being paid about $1,000 every day.” ... >A Dizzying Maze of Jobs >The reasons for the M.T.A.’s high costs start with the sheer number of people employed. >Mike Roach noticed it immediately upon entering the No. 7 line work site a few years ago. Mr. Roach, a California-based tunneling contractor, was not involved in the project but was invited to see it. He was stunned by how many people were operating the machine churning through soil to create the tunnel. >“I actually started counting because I was so surprised, and I counted 25 or 26 people,” he said. “That’s three times what I’m used to.” >The staffing of tunnel-boring machines came up repeatedly in interviews with contractors. The so-called T.B.M.s are massive contraptions, weighing over 1,000 tons and stretching up to 500 feet from cutting wheel to thrust system, but they largely run automatically. Other cities typically man the machine with fewer than 10 people. >It is not just tunneling machines that are overstaffed, though. A dozen New York unions work on tunnel creation, station erection and system setup. Each negotiates with the construction companies over labor conditions, without the M.T.A.’s involvement. And each has secured rules that contractors say require more workers than necessary. >The unions and vendors declined to release the labor deals, but The Times obtained them. Along with interviews with contractors, the documents reveal a dizzying maze of jobs, many of which do not exist on projects elsewhere. >There are “nippers” to watch material being moved around and “hog house tenders” to supervise the break room. Each crane must have an “oiler,” a relic of a time when they needed frequent lubrication. Standby electricians and plumbers are to be on hand at all times, as is at least one “master mechanic.” Generators and elevators must have their own operators, even though they are automatic. An extra person is required to be present for all concrete pumping, steam fitting, sheet metal work and other tasks. >In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world. >That ratio does not include people who get lost in the sea of workers and get paid even though they have no apparent responsibility, as happened on East Side Access. The construction company running that project declined to comment.
smadge 7y ago
The article suggests that the knowledge and skill required to build tunnels efficiently have atrophied over time, I suppose as the people involved in the explosion of construction between 1904 - 1940 retire.
- delfinom 7y ago
  There's a documentary out there that details how NYC tunnel construction worked back then. Basically almost war-like propaganda about how working on the tunnel was good for you and the country, how you are chicken if you don't go down in there, etc. They got it done fast by literally throwing people at the tunnel and scooping out their remains. Then they had the papers run propaganda to cover up incidents and recruit more bodies. Incidentally, they basically had the human powered version of a TBM frame back then and still had people dying left and right. Times are a little different now....a little hard to have people dying every hour on a construction job
beerandt 7y ago
Among other factors- late 70's EPA regulations starting to kick in on late 80's projects.

btown 7y ago

So one thing that's deceptive about that graph is that the projects are far from equal in per-mile complexity. The 1988 Jamaica extensions service a relatively sparsely populated area, with ready access for construction vehicles (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica%E2%80%93179th_Street_station#Entrances_and_exits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica%E2%80%93179th_Street_s... ) - by contrast, the proposed Manhattan projects in 2019 require much more engineering to route around limited access, preserve above-ground activities, and ensure reinforcement given large skyscrapers above. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway#Construction_methods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway#Construct... But there are certainly likely other factors. One might imagine that as alternative modes of transportation (ridesharing, etc.) become more commonplace, prices would go down in a competitive marketplace. But one might also imagine that established construction firms might see things like ridesharing (or other decreases in construction costs) as damaging to their long-term stability; they may therefore do things like lobby the city for increased regulations that would cause the proposed project to drag out even longer and provide increased financial stability to the firm. (An alternate read on this is that the firms are finally catching up to increased standards for labor and health, and this was not priced in in the past... but that's a very optimistic read.)

dantheman 7y ago
The big things are corruption, graft, and mismanagement.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  You know you have a lot of corruption and graft when you can't just pretend it's all mismanagement.
- simplicio 7y ago
  Has corruption, graft and mismanagement increased so sharply over the last few decades? I don't picture, say, the NYC of Robert Moses as being particularly free of corruption and graft. And yet, they seem to have been able to build Subways much cheaper
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Defined benefit pensions are sucking up a lot of resources, as well as fire code/ADA related costs. I’m sure labor costs much more than in decades before, not just in construction, but in permitting and planning. As the years go on, projects with large liabilities have to go to extreme lengths to show they did their due diligence. Otherwise, it’s a ripe for a lawsuit that says “well you knew that risk existed and did nothing to prevent it” and pays out a few million taxpayer dollars.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    My working theory is graft and corruption can coexist with effective management of projects. I also have an impression that the US mostly stopped building infrastructure like subways which has various negative effects. Lack of experienced engineering oversight, lack of local engineering talent, no experienced workforce. Weak industrial capability and support. And milking to death any projects that do get through the approval process.
    - TylerE 7y ago
      Wonder how much of it is not treating workers like disposable things? Look at pictures of work crews back in the 30s and you see workers eating lunch - completely unharnessed - on exposed beams 100s of feet in the air. Deaths were common on large projects.
      - simplicio 7y ago
        Better worker safety certainly accounts for some increase in costs. But US infrastructure costs aren't only high compared to the past, they're high compared to other modern developed countries. I don't think Spain, for example, is keeping their costs relatively low by treating their construction workers as cannon-fodder.
neltnerb 7y ago
Yes, I agree that seemed odd to ignore. The theory that loss of experience results in increasing costs sounds true, but I see nothing to back it up or any thought of alternate explanations. Like models that include economic impact I would expect to skyrocket the costs (in a total sense) when building in areas that get built up over time.
namdnay 7y ago
Why on earth would you want to encourage subway commuters to switch to ride sharing?! Ride sharing is a good intermediate solution, better than individual vehicles, but it still causes noise, pollution and traffic. We need to do everything we can to encourage people to avoid cars and adopt public transport

jcranmer 7y ago

There are several factors: * Labor costs and construction material costs have grown faster than inflation. * There are more amenities in subways (such as handicapped access in stations) now than 100 years ago, and new construction accounts for them from the beginning. * The underground infrastructure has become more crowded, which increases the number of pipes and the like that need to be relocated or avoided during construction. * Planning and permitting requirements have increased, so you need to spend money showing, e.g., that you aren't harming any migratory fowl resting areas, or ensuring that you can expeditiously evacuate the station in case of an emergency. * The agencies in charge have been doing worse and worse jobs at cost-control and project management. The proposed price tag of the second phase of the 2nd Avenue subway is absolutely ludicrous--and so far, the MTA's justification [1] for the insane cost premiums is "fire codes." Seriously. For 10× over, say, Paris Metro construction costs. The public really needs to take MTA and the New York state government to task for allowing that sort of bullshit to stand. [1] http://secondavenuesagas.com/2019/09/23/mta-officials-cite-fire-code-in-defending-6-billion-cost-for-phase-2-of-the-second-ave-subway/ http://secondavenuesagas.com/2019/09/23/mta-officials-cite-f...

throwaway1777 7y ago
How have labor costs gone up so much? Average subway workers haven’t recently started making a ton of money as far as I know, so is the money going to administration?
- lonelappde 7y ago
  According to reports, there is massive fraud of people being paid a lot to literally do nothing.
  - oftenwrong 7y ago
    further reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... >An accountant discovered the discrepancy while reviewing the budget for new train platforms under Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan. >The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as part of a 3.5-mile tunnel connecting the historic station to the Long Island Rail Road. But the accountant could only identify about 700 jobs that needed to be done, according to three project supervisors. Officials could not find any reason for the other 200 people to be there. >“Nobody knew what those people were doing, if they were doing anything,” said Michael Horodniceanu, who was then the head of construction at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs transit in New York. The workers were laid off, Mr. Horodniceanu said, but no one figured out how long they had been employed. “All we knew is they were each being paid about $1,000 every day.” ... >A Dizzying Maze of Jobs >The reasons for the M.T.A.’s high costs start with the sheer number of people employed. >Mike Roach noticed it immediately upon entering the No. 7 line work site a few years ago. Mr. Roach, a California-based tunneling contractor, was not involved in the project but was invited to see it. He was stunned by how many people were operating the machine churning through soil to create the tunnel. >“I actually started counting because I was so surprised, and I counted 25 or 26 people,” he said. “That’s three times what I’m used to.” >The staffing of tunnel-boring machines came up repeatedly in interviews with contractors. The so-called T.B.M.s are massive contraptions, weighing over 1,000 tons and stretching up to 500 feet from cutting wheel to thrust system, but they largely run automatically. Other cities typically man the machine with fewer than 10 people. >It is not just tunneling machines that are overstaffed, though. A dozen New York unions work on tunnel creation, station erection and system setup. Each negotiates with the construction companies over labor conditions, without the M.T.A.’s involvement. And each has secured rules that contractors say require more workers than necessary. >The unions and vendors declined to release the labor deals, but The Times obtained them. Along with interviews with contractors, the documents reveal a dizzying maze of jobs, many of which do not exist on projects elsewhere. >There are “nippers” to watch material being moved around and “hog house tenders” to supervise the break room. Each crane must have an “oiler,” a relic of a time when they needed frequent lubrication. Standby electricians and plumbers are to be on hand at all times, as is at least one “master mechanic.” Generators and elevators must have their own operators, even though they are automatic. An extra person is required to be present for all concrete pumping, steam fitting, sheet metal work and other tasks. >In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world. >That ratio does not include people who get lost in the sea of workers and get paid even though they have no apparent responsibility, as happened on East Side Access. The construction company running that project declined to comment.

smadge 7y ago

The article suggests that the knowledge and skill required to build tunnels efficiently have atrophied over time, I suppose as the people involved in the explosion of construction between 1904 - 1940 retire.

delfinom 7y ago
There's a documentary out there that details how NYC tunnel construction worked back then. Basically almost war-like propaganda about how working on the tunnel was good for you and the country, how you are chicken if you don't go down in there, etc. They got it done fast by literally throwing people at the tunnel and scooping out their remains. Then they had the papers run propaganda to cover up incidents and recruit more bodies. Incidentally, they basically had the human powered version of a TBM frame back then and still had people dying left and right. Times are a little different now....a little hard to have people dying every hour on a construction job

beerandt 7y ago

Among other factors- late 70's EPA regulations starting to kick in on late 80's projects.