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My issue with articles and stances like this is that I agree that rent seeking behavior is obviously an issue. Rent seeking is by definition unproductive econom

My issue with articles and stances like this is that I agree that rent seeking behavior is obviously an issue. Rent seeking is by definition unproductive economic behavior. But the existence of rent seeking does not serve as proper indictment of capitalism in general. Capitalism has been an effective and great tool and system in many ways, it just needs focus on the improper practices.

collyw 7y ago
> Rent seeking is by definition unproductive economic behavior. While I am inclined to agree with you, I do see benefits to the renting model. Basically any thing in the cloud is paying towards "rent seeking" model and it has enough benefits for many people that its worthwhile.
- tryptophan 7y ago
  Renting =/= rents(in the economic sense). Renting cloud VPS is not rent-seeking(in the economic sense). Two completely different concepts which unfortunately bear the same name.
  - collyw 7y ago
    Ok, if you are going to claim a distinction, I think its fair to ask where the distinction lies. Whats so good about renting cloud infrastructure from renting an apartment? (Apartments don't com with the same level of vendor lock in.)
    - yakz 7y ago
      Cloud VPS is a management service and not a hardware leasing service.
      - collyw 7y ago
        why is it charged by the size of machine then? Does a bigger machine require more management?
        phs318u 7y ago
        True. But supply is limited so there has to be a mechanism to ration what exists to what is desired. The ability to pay is a reasonable proxy for need.
    - boomboomsubban 7y ago
      Running a cloud infrastructure takes work, and the profits should be made from the service provided and not off the monopolization of some property.
      - collyw 7y ago
        So does building and maintaining an apartment.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        The article discusses rentier, which is pretty much the rent seeking discussed here. Renting an apartment isn't profiting off the monopolization of property either.
    - cortesoft 7y ago
      So rent seeking is only slightly related to actual rent (like for an apartment or office). It is the idea of extracting value from something without providing anything. A landlord who does no work maintaining an apartment but charges rent would qualify, but a good landlord who works to improve and maintain the property to rent would not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Rent is sort of surplus gained due to advantage of scarcity rather than advantage of production. Unfortunately, I cannot write a HN comment that differentiates more clearly but that's the rough idea. Like setting up a guild and saying no one can do work except through the guild and then using that advantage of pricing is rent-seeking. Just being better at doing work so you make more money is profiting.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  If someone is providing a service that generally increases the total wealth (even if they are the primary recipient of that wealth), then it is not rent-seeking. It’s when someone is _actively trying to extract wealth without adding value_ that we call this rent-seeking behavior. It is often not obvious from the outside which is which, and it does lie on a spectrum. Software is actually a pretty interesting case to inspect rent-seeking, but it’s not easy to pull apart in rent-seeking context (music is another such product). So let’s imagine a reservoir of water, and there is a bridge that everyone must go over to get the water. Now imagine there is a bridge troll that demands 50 gold coins in order for people to pass. This is rent-seeking behavior. Now imagine the same scenario, but the troll built the bridge. This is not rent-seeking per se, it is wealth creation, because now everyone can get to the water source that they could not get to before. However, the troll can still engage in rent-seeking behavior (like preventing anyone else from building a bridge). That doesn’t mean that rent-seeking doesn’t come into play when chasing profits, but the term is definitionally about siphoning of wealth, not its generation, so drawing the line between profit seeking and rent-seeking isn’t really something you can do in practice unless it’s obvious that no wealth creation whatsoever comes from the rent-seeking behavior.
rapind 7y ago
I thinks this is the issue with our capitalism in "practice". It's not resilient enough to bad actors. Of course there's no perfect system, but we should strive to improve what we have whether or not we can still label it "capitalism" (or socialism or w/e) as we iterate.

collyw 7y ago

> Rent seeking is by definition unproductive economic behavior. While I am inclined to agree with you, I do see benefits to the renting model. Basically any thing in the cloud is paying towards "rent seeking" model and it has enough benefits for many people that its worthwhile.

tryptophan 7y ago
Renting =/= rents(in the economic sense). Renting cloud VPS is not rent-seeking(in the economic sense). Two completely different concepts which unfortunately bear the same name.
- collyw 7y ago
  Ok, if you are going to claim a distinction, I think its fair to ask where the distinction lies. Whats so good about renting cloud infrastructure from renting an apartment? (Apartments don't com with the same level of vendor lock in.)
  - yakz 7y ago
    Cloud VPS is a management service and not a hardware leasing service.
    - collyw 7y ago
      why is it charged by the size of machine then? Does a bigger machine require more management?
      - phs318u 7y ago
        True. But supply is limited so there has to be a mechanism to ration what exists to what is desired. The ability to pay is a reasonable proxy for need.
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    Running a cloud infrastructure takes work, and the profits should be made from the service provided and not off the monopolization of some property.
    - collyw 7y ago
      So does building and maintaining an apartment.
      - boomboomsubban 7y ago
        The article discusses rentier, which is pretty much the rent seeking discussed here. Renting an apartment isn't profiting off the monopolization of property either.
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    So rent seeking is only slightly related to actual rent (like for an apartment or office). It is the idea of extracting value from something without providing anything. A landlord who does no work maintaining an apartment but charges rent would qualify, but a good landlord who works to improve and maintain the property to rent would not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
scarejunba 7y ago
Rent is sort of surplus gained due to advantage of scarcity rather than advantage of production. Unfortunately, I cannot write a HN comment that differentiates more clearly but that's the rough idea. Like setting up a guild and saying no one can do work except through the guild and then using that advantage of pricing is rent-seeking. Just being better at doing work so you make more money is profiting.
IggleSniggle 7y ago
If someone is providing a service that generally increases the total wealth (even if they are the primary recipient of that wealth), then it is not rent-seeking. It’s when someone is _actively trying to extract wealth without adding value_ that we call this rent-seeking behavior. It is often not obvious from the outside which is which, and it does lie on a spectrum. Software is actually a pretty interesting case to inspect rent-seeking, but it’s not easy to pull apart in rent-seeking context (music is another such product). So let’s imagine a reservoir of water, and there is a bridge that everyone must go over to get the water. Now imagine there is a bridge troll that demands 50 gold coins in order for people to pass. This is rent-seeking behavior. Now imagine the same scenario, but the troll built the bridge. This is not rent-seeking per se, it is wealth creation, because now everyone can get to the water source that they could not get to before. However, the troll can still engage in rent-seeking behavior (like preventing anyone else from building a bridge). That doesn’t mean that rent-seeking doesn’t come into play when chasing profits, but the term is definitionally about siphoning of wealth, not its generation, so drawing the line between profit seeking and rent-seeking isn’t really something you can do in practice unless it’s obvious that no wealth creation whatsoever comes from the rent-seeking behavior.

rapind 7y ago

I thinks this is the issue with our capitalism in "practice". It's not resilient enough to bad actors. Of course there's no perfect system, but we should strive to improve what we have whether or not we can still label it "capitalism" (or socialism or w/e) as we iterate.