4 ms·

First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell m

First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell me what to use. Avoiding misgendering is great. Yeah, I wanna do that. The real issue is: TOEFL actively punishes people for using singular "they". But we also tell everyone to use singular "they". If they don't, they will face a heavy backlash (e.g. being called bigots). Here are the people we should be screaming at: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/

munmaek 7y ago
My opinion: never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language. They're always out of date. English doesn't really have an entity that dictates "rules". The guidelines vary between dialects, so I can only speak about American English... You can read the Oxford Style Manual or The Chicago Manual of Style for reference, but sometimes people disagree. Previously people looked at Strunk & White's Elements of Style, etc. --- On this particular issue, "they" is fine as singular, and is being used like that very frequently these days.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  > never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language I agree with you. However, TOEFL is the gatekeeper for applying to a US/UK university. They have real power to punish you for using what they think is wrong, in this case singular "they" is wrong for them. We study English to take TOEFL exam, so we can get into great universities. At this point, we need to balance between being punished at TOEFL exam or being punished by public shaming. TOEFL could have just published a blog post saying that singular "they" is acceptable. It probably takes 2 minutes to do so. Yet they don't, even though singular "they" has been used for decades (as many comments point out). It's dumb, and that's why I suggest we scream at TOEFL's leadership instead.
morelisp 7y ago
The difference between "using the language formally correctly" and "using the language in a way to pass the exam" (and of course "using the language as it is actually spoken") is not a problem specific to English or foreign-language speakers. Many (most?) countries have even stronger regional variance than English, even more than e.g. American vs. UK. TOEFL-takers are not idiots; they can understand what is correct in one context is not in another, especially hyper-formal, artificial contexts like taking tests. And the overwhelming majority of objection to singular they does not come from people who have deeply tied their identity to TOEFL.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  I agree with what you say, but the problem is rather specific to american culture. Being called names (like bigots) because you don't wanna use a singular "they" is a regular occurrence in the present time in US. While you think a singular "they" is correct, one of your authorities (TOEFL) who gatekeeps prestige US universities doesn't agree with you. Many (including me) don't care what you think (not in a bad way). You aren't authority who can punish us. We want (1) great points on TOEFL (to get into various opportunities) and (2) to avoid hurting others (i.e. misgendering). This configuration is impossible at the moment. I hope you don't suggest that we can misgender people as long as it's a TOEFL exam. It doesnt sound ok.
  - morelisp 7y ago
    I didn't know TOEFL was so devious as to make all their test scenarios concern non-binary people or people of indeterminate gender, but then demand you discuss them without also explaining your pronoun choices. Wait, that doesn't happen. At all. This is non-issue.
    - ergocoder 7y ago
      Here's a link (from my 3-minute googling) suggesting that we should avoid the singular "they": https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-... > Wait, that doesn't happen. At all. Absolutist + so much exaggeration, and it seems more like you are arguing in bad faith. That's why nobody wants to talk about the usage of the singular "they". We can't even point out that your English authority doesn't agree with you. > This is non-issue. It's a non-issue to you because you aren't the students who are rejected by universities because of low TOEFL score.

munmaek 7y ago

My opinion: never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language. They're always out of date. English doesn't really have an entity that dictates "rules". The guidelines vary between dialects, so I can only speak about American English... You can read the Oxford Style Manual or The Chicago Manual of Style for reference, but sometimes people disagree. Previously people looked at Strunk & White's Elements of Style, etc. --- On this particular issue, "they" is fine as singular, and is being used like that very frequently these days.

ergocoder 7y ago
> never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language I agree with you. However, TOEFL is the gatekeeper for applying to a US/UK university. They have real power to punish you for using what they think is wrong, in this case singular "they" is wrong for them. We study English to take TOEFL exam, so we can get into great universities. At this point, we need to balance between being punished at TOEFL exam or being punished by public shaming. TOEFL could have just published a blog post saying that singular "they" is acceptable. It probably takes 2 minutes to do so. Yet they don't, even though singular "they" has been used for decades (as many comments point out). It's dumb, and that's why I suggest we scream at TOEFL's leadership instead.

morelisp 7y ago

The difference between "using the language formally correctly" and "using the language in a way to pass the exam" (and of course "using the language as it is actually spoken") is not a problem specific to English or foreign-language speakers. Many (most?) countries have even stronger regional variance than English, even more than e.g. American vs. UK. TOEFL-takers are not idiots; they can understand what is correct in one context is not in another, especially hyper-formal, artificial contexts like taking tests. And the overwhelming majority of objection to singular they does not come from people who have deeply tied their identity to TOEFL.

ergocoder 7y ago
I agree with what you say, but the problem is rather specific to american culture. Being called names (like bigots) because you don't wanna use a singular "they" is a regular occurrence in the present time in US. While you think a singular "they" is correct, one of your authorities (TOEFL) who gatekeeps prestige US universities doesn't agree with you. Many (including me) don't care what you think (not in a bad way). You aren't authority who can punish us. We want (1) great points on TOEFL (to get into various opportunities) and (2) to avoid hurting others (i.e. misgendering). This configuration is impossible at the moment. I hope you don't suggest that we can misgender people as long as it's a TOEFL exam. It doesnt sound ok.
- morelisp 7y ago
  I didn't know TOEFL was so devious as to make all their test scenarios concern non-binary people or people of indeterminate gender, but then demand you discuss them without also explaining your pronoun choices. Wait, that doesn't happen. At all. This is non-issue.
  - ergocoder 7y ago
    Here's a link (from my 3-minute googling) suggesting that we should avoid the singular "they": https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-... > Wait, that doesn't happen. At all. Absolutist + so much exaggeration, and it seems more like you are arguing in bad faith. That's why nobody wants to talk about the usage of the singular "they". We can't even point out that your English authority doesn't agree with you. > This is non-issue. It's a non-issue to you because you aren't the students who are rejected by universities because of low TOEFL score.