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But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was

But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was acceptable. This would mean my whole country (I'm from SEA) was taught the wrong thing. ---- I've googled a little. For example, this article recommends we avoid using singular "they" (https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-...). Quote: "Context clearly matters. If you are training English students for the TOEFL or IELTS exams, you should emphasize that using “they” for a singular pronoun will cost students points. Hence, it must be avoided on standardized exams. Yet – like many American advertisers and recent Presidents (Obama, Trump, Clinton) – I find the use comfortable and legitimate." TOEFL/IELTS really needs to publish official guidelines on these new words.

lorenzhs 7y ago
Singular "they" isn't even new, it's been used since the 1300s at least: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they That said, it used to be rather uncommon in more recent times, which is now changing again. Standardized tests currently consider its use a mistake, just as »[i]n the 1600s, some writers objected to the use of "singular you" (compare objections to the "singular they")« (wiktionary). Languages constantly evolve.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  The language can change. I understand. What I have problems with is: 1. We publicly shame people for not use the new word. Calling them names like bigots. 2. Your authority thinks the new word is wrong. It just seems, at this point, you should scream at your authorities to support singular "they" officially. Here they are: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ Instead, we spend energy and effort publicly shaming random people.
munmaek 7y ago
It only became more acceptable a few decades ago, and relatively recently surged in popularity. "They" was first used like this hundreds of years ago, so it's not a new concept. Many EFL curriculums in foreign countries are out of date, because languages change all the time. If TOEFL or whatever says otherwise, they are wrong and out of date. Not that anyone seriously thinks those standardized tests actually reflect any meaningful grasp of a language. Anyway. "They" is perfectly fine as a gender neutral, singular or plural pronoun. Anyone that says otherwise is clinging to prescriptivism and is in denial. [0]: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
- ergocoder 7y ago
  First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell me what to use. Avoiding misgendering is great. Yeah, I wanna do that. The real issue is: TOEFL actively punishes people for using singular "they". But we also tell everyone to use singular "they". If they don't, they will face a heavy backlash (e.g. being called bigots). Here are the people we should be screaming at: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/
  - munmaek 7y ago
    My opinion: never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language. They're always out of date. English doesn't really have an entity that dictates "rules". The guidelines vary between dialects, so I can only speak about American English... You can read the Oxford Style Manual or The Chicago Manual of Style for reference, but sometimes people disagree. Previously people looked at Strunk & White's Elements of Style, etc. --- On this particular issue, "they" is fine as singular, and is being used like that very frequently these days.
    - ergocoder 7y ago
      > never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language I agree with you. However, TOEFL is the gatekeeper for applying to a US/UK university. They have real power to punish you for using what they think is wrong, in this case singular "they" is wrong for them. We study English to take TOEFL exam, so we can get into great universities. At this point, we need to balance between being punished at TOEFL exam or being punished by public shaming. TOEFL could have just published a blog post saying that singular "they" is acceptable. It probably takes 2 minutes to do so. Yet they don't, even though singular "they" has been used for decades (as many comments point out). It's dumb, and that's why I suggest we scream at TOEFL's leadership instead.

lorenzhs 7y ago

Singular "they" isn't even new, it's been used since the 1300s at least: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they That said, it used to be rather uncommon in more recent times, which is now changing again. Standardized tests currently consider its use a mistake, just as »[i]n the 1600s, some writers objected to the use of "singular you" (compare objections to the "singular they")« (wiktionary). Languages constantly evolve.

ergocoder 7y ago
The language can change. I understand. What I have problems with is: 1. We publicly shame people for not use the new word. Calling them names like bigots. 2. Your authority thinks the new word is wrong. It just seems, at this point, you should scream at your authorities to support singular "they" officially. Here they are: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ Instead, we spend energy and effort publicly shaming random people.

munmaek 7y ago

It only became more acceptable a few decades ago, and relatively recently surged in popularity. "They" was first used like this hundreds of years ago, so it's not a new concept. Many EFL curriculums in foreign countries are out of date, because languages change all the time. If TOEFL or whatever says otherwise, they are wrong and out of date. Not that anyone seriously thinks those standardized tests actually reflect any meaningful grasp of a language. Anyway. "They" is perfectly fine as a gender neutral, singular or plural pronoun. Anyone that says otherwise is clinging to prescriptivism and is in denial. [0]: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...

ergocoder 7y ago
First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell me what to use. Avoiding misgendering is great. Yeah, I wanna do that. The real issue is: TOEFL actively punishes people for using singular "they". But we also tell everyone to use singular "they". If they don't, they will face a heavy backlash (e.g. being called bigots). Here are the people we should be screaming at: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/
- munmaek 7y ago
  My opinion: never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language. They're always out of date. English doesn't really have an entity that dictates "rules". The guidelines vary between dialects, so I can only speak about American English... You can read the Oxford Style Manual or The Chicago Manual of Style for reference, but sometimes people disagree. Previously people looked at Strunk & White's Elements of Style, etc. --- On this particular issue, "they" is fine as singular, and is being used like that very frequently these days.
  - ergocoder 7y ago
    > never look at TOEFL or any test for how to actually speak a language I agree with you. However, TOEFL is the gatekeeper for applying to a US/UK university. They have real power to punish you for using what they think is wrong, in this case singular "they" is wrong for them. We study English to take TOEFL exam, so we can get into great universities. At this point, we need to balance between being punished at TOEFL exam or being punished by public shaming. TOEFL could have just published a blog post saying that singular "they" is acceptable. It probably takes 2 minutes to do so. Yet they don't, even though singular "they" has been used for decades (as many comments point out). It's dumb, and that's why I suggest we scream at TOEFL's leadership instead.