4 ms·

I don't find it to be unreasonable. If a trans person clearly states that her pronouns are "she/her" and you twist your sentences around to avoid using pronouns

I don't find it to be unreasonable. If a trans person clearly states that her pronouns are "she/her" and you twist your sentences around to avoid using pronouns at all, that could certainly give the impression that you don't recognize her identity as valid. I am not saying OP did this or did this intentionally but it's not an unreasonable policy. It sounds to me (without being intimately familiar with the situation) that OP has esoteric stylistic preferences that are not transphobic but happen to be consistent with the language that transphobic people will use. Pronoun use is pretty straightforward. If someone says their pronouns, you use their pronouns to refer to them, just like you would anyone else. It may feel a little disorienting if you don't talk to many trans people and, for example, they use singular "they" or have a pronoun that seems different than the one that you would naturally assign to them based on their appearance, but it's not difficult and you can get used to it pretty quickly. The reason that people are so sensitive and strict about this is because the stakes for trans people are very high -- some people don't believe trans people exist, should exist, or should have the same rights as cis people. Refusing to use the right pronouns reveals either a benign misunderstanding about trans people or a willful hostility towards their existence. The latter is extremely common and can be both hurtful and often scary, as trans people, especially trans people of color, are often subject to violence because of their identities.

pfortuny 7y ago
And... how is it that you know when someone is twisting his or her sentences?
- alexwennerberg 7y ago
  I don't know the situation at hand well enough to say whether the policy was fairly enforced, but the policy itself is not unreasonable. If, for example, someone had the same stylistic practices as the OP and also wrote hateful things about trans people on Twitter, it may be more likely. Or if they use a certain style when referring to cis people but use a different one when referring to people with they/them pronouns or trans people.
- geofft 7y ago
  Something like "Jenner said that Jenner's children all have a good relationship with Jenner and that Jenner values Jenner's time with Jenner's children." (To be clear, I made this sentence up just now, I'm not quoting anyone, but this is presumably the sort of thing that would motivate a policy against not just misgendering but also deliberately avoiding the use of pronouns. If you use this construction, and then use "he" to refer to, say, Daley Thompson, you're sort of calling attention to your refusal to use a pronoun. My reading of the article is this sort of thing is not the moderator in question's intention, though.)
  - fencepost 7y ago
    Running with your totally made up example, what's the correct pronoun if the writing is about an interview that happened in the 90s?
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      Typically, you use someone's current pronouns, and in cases of celebrity you might include something like "nee Bruce Jenner" in a parenthetical.
      - benrbray 7y ago
        "When Jenner won the 1976 men's decathalon, she was ecstatic."
        Pfhreak 7y ago
        This reads fine to me? Yeah, Jenner is trans. Yes, she ran in events when she was younger. Is anyone reading that not going to understand?
        geofft 7y ago
        That seems reasonable to me. Pronouns are mostly there to define a referent, not to make you think about someone's gender presentation or genitals every time you see the pronoun. So if you have a long article about Caitlin Jenner and you consistently refer to her as "she," I think it won't actually be jarring. (Similar to how if you repeatedly use "... he said" etc. in writing, it subconsciously disappears to readers, but if you as a writer decide that it's repetitive and you need to use other synonyms for "said" every time, that's actually distracting.) Of course maybe the real answer is to ask her what she'd prefer?
- alkonaut 7y ago
  At StackExchange this is unlikely and difficult. But in an everyday scenario this is quite possible: you call the girls in the class "she", the guys in the class "he", and the boy who used to be a girl and wants to be called "he" these days, you call "they/them". Using a neutral in that scenario could be wrong.
- uryga 7y ago
  check out the wiki article about DJ Sprinkles: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Thaemlitz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Thaemlitz it's written without using pronouns in accordance with the artist's wishes afaik. it's pretty easy to notice the places where you'd normally put a pronoun
ng12 7y ago
> that OP has esoteric stylistic preferences that are not transphobic but happen to be consistent with the language that transphobic people will use. Is there a term for this? May I suggest "wrongthink by associaton"? Furthermore I suspect this is less about he/him vs she/hers but some of the more esoteric pronoun preferences.
- alexwennerberg 7y ago
  Singular they/them is not esoteric -- it is recognized by most major style guides, including the New York Times, the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, among others.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Kye 7y ago
    Especially since so many posts complaining about singular they use singular they. A few of them take a look at their own post, rethink it, and decide they're actually fine with it.
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  > Furthermore I suspect this is less about he/him vs she/hers but some of the more esoteric pronoun preferences. Is that the case here? I would think it is a bit too avantgardist to expect people to contort their sentences to include singular pronouns beyond he/she/they at this point. I get the impression that those esoteric made-up pronouns tend to be mostly used for straw-men arguments.
- recycler02 7y ago
  > "wrongthink by association" I think this is a fairly descriptive term. This happened fairly recently for me in another context. After I saw Star Wars Episode VIII, I let it be known that I thought it was a bad movie. In this cultural moment, some folks will take that innocent opinion from a lifelong Star Wars fan as a signifier of my stance in favor of every controversial thing that a terrible person who also disliked the movie said. It feels like everything is taken as a dog whistle.
strken 7y ago
The stakes being so high justifies good decision making, not instant compliance. When you're arguing with those who are actively hostile towards your beliefs, you're usually only able to convince the undecided middle, who watch your argument and take sides without contributing. I don't think firing a moderator who was to all appearances LGBT-friendly and causing this level of drama has been a net reputation gain for either Stack Exchange or trans people.
mwyah 7y ago
>I don't find it to be unreasonable. If a trans person clearly states that her pronouns are "she/her" and you twist your sentences around to avoid using pronouns at all, that could certainly give the impression that you don't recognize her identity as valid. ...and why should I? Why is this a given? Reminds me of when Andy Bernard goes to therapy and when he comes back he asks people to call him Drew.
- alexwennerberg 7y ago
  Because trans people exist, and this isn't really up for debate, it's accepted by all mainstream medical and psychological associations and is demonstrated in practice by the lived experiences of millions of trans people.

pfortuny 7y ago

And... how is it that you know when someone is twisting his or her sentences?

alexwennerberg 7y ago
I don't know the situation at hand well enough to say whether the policy was fairly enforced, but the policy itself is not unreasonable. If, for example, someone had the same stylistic practices as the OP and also wrote hateful things about trans people on Twitter, it may be more likely. Or if they use a certain style when referring to cis people but use a different one when referring to people with they/them pronouns or trans people.
geofft 7y ago
Something like "Jenner said that Jenner's children all have a good relationship with Jenner and that Jenner values Jenner's time with Jenner's children." (To be clear, I made this sentence up just now, I'm not quoting anyone, but this is presumably the sort of thing that would motivate a policy against not just misgendering but also deliberately avoiding the use of pronouns. If you use this construction, and then use "he" to refer to, say, Daley Thompson, you're sort of calling attention to your refusal to use a pronoun. My reading of the article is this sort of thing is not the moderator in question's intention, though.)
- fencepost 7y ago
  Running with your totally made up example, what's the correct pronoun if the writing is about an interview that happened in the 90s?
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Typically, you use someone's current pronouns, and in cases of celebrity you might include something like "nee Bruce Jenner" in a parenthetical.
    - benrbray 7y ago
      "When Jenner won the 1976 men's decathalon, she was ecstatic."
      - Pfhreak 7y ago
        This reads fine to me? Yeah, Jenner is trans. Yes, she ran in events when she was younger. Is anyone reading that not going to understand?
      - geofft 7y ago
        That seems reasonable to me. Pronouns are mostly there to define a referent, not to make you think about someone's gender presentation or genitals every time you see the pronoun. So if you have a long article about Caitlin Jenner and you consistently refer to her as "she," I think it won't actually be jarring. (Similar to how if you repeatedly use "... he said" etc. in writing, it subconsciously disappears to readers, but if you as a writer decide that it's repetitive and you need to use other synonyms for "said" every time, that's actually distracting.) Of course maybe the real answer is to ask her what she'd prefer?
alkonaut 7y ago
At StackExchange this is unlikely and difficult. But in an everyday scenario this is quite possible: you call the girls in the class "she", the guys in the class "he", and the boy who used to be a girl and wants to be called "he" these days, you call "they/them". Using a neutral in that scenario could be wrong.
uryga 7y ago
check out the wiki article about DJ Sprinkles: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Thaemlitz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Thaemlitz it's written without using pronouns in accordance with the artist's wishes afaik. it's pretty easy to notice the places where you'd normally put a pronoun

ng12 7y ago

> that OP has esoteric stylistic preferences that are not transphobic but happen to be consistent with the language that transphobic people will use. Is there a term for this? May I suggest "wrongthink by associaton"? Furthermore I suspect this is less about he/him vs she/hers but some of the more esoteric pronoun preferences.

alexwennerberg 7y ago
Singular they/them is not esoteric -- it is recognized by most major style guides, including the New York Times, the Associated Press, the Chicago Manual of Style, among others.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Kye 7y ago
  Especially since so many posts complaining about singular they use singular they. A few of them take a look at their own post, rethink it, and decide they're actually fine with it.
Freak_NL 7y ago
> Furthermore I suspect this is less about he/him vs she/hers but some of the more esoteric pronoun preferences. Is that the case here? I would think it is a bit too avantgardist to expect people to contort their sentences to include singular pronouns beyond he/she/they at this point. I get the impression that those esoteric made-up pronouns tend to be mostly used for straw-men arguments.
recycler02 7y ago
> "wrongthink by association" I think this is a fairly descriptive term. This happened fairly recently for me in another context. After I saw Star Wars Episode VIII, I let it be known that I thought it was a bad movie. In this cultural moment, some folks will take that innocent opinion from a lifelong Star Wars fan as a signifier of my stance in favor of every controversial thing that a terrible person who also disliked the movie said. It feels like everything is taken as a dog whistle.

strken 7y ago

The stakes being so high justifies good decision making, not instant compliance. When you're arguing with those who are actively hostile towards your beliefs, you're usually only able to convince the undecided middle, who watch your argument and take sides without contributing. I don't think firing a moderator who was to all appearances LGBT-friendly and causing this level of drama has been a net reputation gain for either Stack Exchange or trans people.

mwyah 7y ago

>I don't find it to be unreasonable. If a trans person clearly states that her pronouns are "she/her" and you twist your sentences around to avoid using pronouns at all, that could certainly give the impression that you don't recognize her identity as valid. ...and why should I? Why is this a given? Reminds me of when Andy Bernard goes to therapy and when he comes back he asks people to call him Drew.

alexwennerberg 7y ago
Because trans people exist, and this isn't really up for debate, it's accepted by all mainstream medical and psychological associations and is demonstrated in practice by the lived experiences of millions of trans people.