3 ms·

I found this story and perspective very interesting but everyone discussing this subject with Hilbert is severely mistaken if they think they'll dissuade him fr

I found this story and perspective very interesting but everyone discussing this subject with Hilbert is severely mistaken if they think they'll dissuade him from his unpopular beliefs with anecdote and musings. Sadly, your story is not one that is going to be heard often in HN (wrong demographic entirely), but it still falls under the scope of anecdote. I think what you're pushing is a more deterministically oriented perspective in terms of where women find themselves in their lives. I don't think that's necessarily going to be much more popular than Hilbert's biologically deterministic tendencies -> choice flip. You'll need to take a different approach in advancing this argument, although the lack of misandry is certainly appreciated. A gentle note: countries that have state funded childcare and that otherwise compensate for the burden of child-rearing have even higher part-time and pink collar employment rates for women than countries that do less to provide for women and children. Your point, I'm afraid, doesn't have fact on its side.

Mz 16y ago
everyone discussing this subject with Hilbert is severely mistaken if they think they'll dissuade him That's a big part of why I was trying to stay out of it. Call it a moment of weakness that I bothered to reply at all. A gentle note: countries that have state funded childcare and that otherwise compensate for the burden of child-rearing have even higher part-time and pink collar employment rates for women than countries that do less to provide for women and children. I am 45. In my twenties, I read quite a lot of books on women's issues and some comparisons between the US and some European countries (many of the titles are lost to the mists of time) and the general understanding I developed was that countries that provided better support for maternity leave and childrearing (and had lower divorce rates) had made more progress than America in closing the wage gap. Those statistics are out of date by at least two decades, but I think the general concept has probably not staled in the least. I don't think I am pushing anything deterministic. I am saying it is tough to change gears once you go far enough down a certain path. But it can be done and understanding what is going on can help in that regard. (EDIT: Also, understanding that this is an issue can potentially help reshape society so that it isn't so much of a "one or the other" kind of choice.) I got divorced and now work full time. After having been a homemaker in a very "traditional" (throw back to the 50's) marriage, I did some gender roll reversal with my sons: When push came to shove financially, I encouraged them to learn to cook and take over more of the housework so I could work more overtime instead of encouraging them to get jobs. I did this for a number of reasons, but one of them was I did not wish to remain the household "domestic slave" and it was clear to me that if we all had jobs, the majority of the housework would continue to fall to me -- not because they are male and I am female, but because I am the one who already knew how to do it. They are well aware of my views that a lot of stereotypical gender roll stuff is rooted in situational factors, not in our genes or physiology, and they were well aware of my various motives. It was better overall for the family than other options available to us and they went along happily. Since my "theories" are yielding real world results for me and my family, I feel confident they aren't simply hot air or delusions (though I also have no fantasies that I know 'everything' either). Anyway, long day and continuing to comment on a topic I should probably stay out of most of the time. It would be far better for me to turn my thoughts into a blog so I can explain my views, at my leisure and and at length, instead of "arguing" it in a male dominated forum. Peace.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  >I developed was that countries that provided better support for maternity leave and childrearing (and had lower divorce rates) had made more progress than America in closing the wage gap. Short answer: no. Slightly longer answer: Definitely not categorically and it depended on the endemic culture. No, it enabled them to have a better quality of life and less work than compared to the US. It also enabled them to have a more secure means of raising a family without having to work full-time. Being a homemaker in the US is a rather fantastic risk to take, especially if you're a stay-at-home Dad as the courts won't favor a wealth transfer as much. I consider the improvement of security for those that want to raise a family without requiring massive individual wealth transfers like the US to be valuable benefits. That said, I find it amusing that some think people somehow have some kind of universal goal to play the career game. Not everybody cares. It wasn't until recently that most feminist writers stopped being so fixated on career development. (Seemingly, anyway. I'm no historian of gender politics.) > I did not wish to remain the household "domestic slave" More power to you, glad you made the kids learn how to better care for themselves. My parents did that with me partially out of necessity and partially out of laziness but it did wonders for my independence. Saved my ass later in life. I'm sure your kids are better for it. Can't say the domestic slave wording is exactly necessary or appealing. Would you describe a stay-at-home Dad as a domestic slave? That's extremely offensive. >It would be far better for me to turn my thoughts into a blog so I can explain my views, at my leisure and and at length, instead of "arguing" it in a male dominated forum. I agree with the first part, but I'm going to have to tut tut you for making excuses. I called you out on a common fallacy. You're going to need to suck it up if you want to debate such violently contentious issues on the internet, and I guarantee you having a 100% female presence would do nothing to make it less...whatever it is you're complaining about. I'm not even arguing with you, I'm just refuting a fallacy and pointing out a wrinkle. These are some of the more educated, open-minded, and liberal (I'm using this in the broader sense) people you're ever going to find on the internet. If you find this community unpleasant you're in for a hell of a shock if you start really plumbing the Internet for the depths of mediocrity.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Re: getting my sons to do more housework: One of my explicit goals was to make sure they can care for themselves. My oldest son has the same medical condition I have. We have gotten off all the drugs and stuff and gotten well by eating better, keeping the house stringently clean, etc. He literally could die if he moved out (or I died) and he didn't know how to care for himself. Re: "domestic slave" -- seems to me like good shorthand. You knew pretty clearly what I meant -- someone really unfairly bogged down with uncompensated labor -- without a lot of elaborating, offended or not. Re: Female audience. That's a laugh. Women seem to find me far more intimidating and offensive than men do. Re: Arguing: That has two meanings, one of which is to debate it and the other is to fight about it. I don't mind a debate though my experience is that most folks on the internet don't really do that. They pretty quickly deteriorate into fighting. Nor am I making excuses. I have pushed the envelope on topics like this many, many times in male dominated forums. I have a fairly good idea of how hard it is do this kind of thing and that one of the big issues is the framing and underlying assumptions of what other people say. It very, very frequently becomes "If you don't agree it's black, then you must be one of those psychos that think it's white. And that is so amazingly obviously wrong that you must be a retard." There is no room for discussing shades of grey, much less a more technicolor version of reality. If I don't agree 100% with their assertion it's black, they peg me as one of those "100% white" folks. I get routinely slammed as being someone who strongly holds the "opposite" view for attempting to say "I don't see it that way". It really matters very little what the topic is -- politics, gender issues, homeschooling, you name it. If I say I homeschooled my kids, I must be one of those folks who wants to dismantle public school. If I say I don't think the anti-vax crowd is completely crazy, someone inevitably asks me what made me choose to not vaccinate my kids at all (which is a fallacious assumption and real example from this very forum). And on and on. So a public forum is a quite difficult place to try to articulate a view that is substantially different from the "standard positions" everyone is familiar with. All attempts to side step the repeated efforts of other people to peg me as this, that, or the other makes it incredibly difficult or downright impossible to convey how I really see it. Thus a blog would be a better option, and not out of cowardice.

Mz 16y ago

everyone discussing this subject with Hilbert is severely mistaken if they think they'll dissuade him That's a big part of why I was trying to stay out of it. Call it a moment of weakness that I bothered to reply at all. A gentle note: countries that have state funded childcare and that otherwise compensate for the burden of child-rearing have even higher part-time and pink collar employment rates for women than countries that do less to provide for women and children. I am 45. In my twenties, I read quite a lot of books on women's issues and some comparisons between the US and some European countries (many of the titles are lost to the mists of time) and the general understanding I developed was that countries that provided better support for maternity leave and childrearing (and had lower divorce rates) had made more progress than America in closing the wage gap. Those statistics are out of date by at least two decades, but I think the general concept has probably not staled in the least. I don't think I am pushing anything deterministic. I am saying it is tough to change gears once you go far enough down a certain path. But it can be done and understanding what is going on can help in that regard. (EDIT: Also, understanding that this is an issue can potentially help reshape society so that it isn't so much of a "one or the other" kind of choice.) I got divorced and now work full time. After having been a homemaker in a very "traditional" (throw back to the 50's) marriage, I did some gender roll reversal with my sons: When push came to shove financially, I encouraged them to learn to cook and take over more of the housework so I could work more overtime instead of encouraging them to get jobs. I did this for a number of reasons, but one of them was I did not wish to remain the household "domestic slave" and it was clear to me that if we all had jobs, the majority of the housework would continue to fall to me -- not because they are male and I am female, but because I am the one who already knew how to do it. They are well aware of my views that a lot of stereotypical gender roll stuff is rooted in situational factors, not in our genes or physiology, and they were well aware of my various motives. It was better overall for the family than other options available to us and they went along happily. Since my "theories" are yielding real world results for me and my family, I feel confident they aren't simply hot air or delusions (though I also have no fantasies that I know 'everything' either). Anyway, long day and continuing to comment on a topic I should probably stay out of most of the time. It would be far better for me to turn my thoughts into a blog so I can explain my views, at my leisure and and at length, instead of "arguing" it in a male dominated forum. Peace.

alnayyir 16y ago
>I developed was that countries that provided better support for maternity leave and childrearing (and had lower divorce rates) had made more progress than America in closing the wage gap. Short answer: no. Slightly longer answer: Definitely not categorically and it depended on the endemic culture. No, it enabled them to have a better quality of life and less work than compared to the US. It also enabled them to have a more secure means of raising a family without having to work full-time. Being a homemaker in the US is a rather fantastic risk to take, especially if you're a stay-at-home Dad as the courts won't favor a wealth transfer as much. I consider the improvement of security for those that want to raise a family without requiring massive individual wealth transfers like the US to be valuable benefits. That said, I find it amusing that some think people somehow have some kind of universal goal to play the career game. Not everybody cares. It wasn't until recently that most feminist writers stopped being so fixated on career development. (Seemingly, anyway. I'm no historian of gender politics.) > I did not wish to remain the household "domestic slave" More power to you, glad you made the kids learn how to better care for themselves. My parents did that with me partially out of necessity and partially out of laziness but it did wonders for my independence. Saved my ass later in life. I'm sure your kids are better for it. Can't say the domestic slave wording is exactly necessary or appealing. Would you describe a stay-at-home Dad as a domestic slave? That's extremely offensive. >It would be far better for me to turn my thoughts into a blog so I can explain my views, at my leisure and and at length, instead of "arguing" it in a male dominated forum. I agree with the first part, but I'm going to have to tut tut you for making excuses. I called you out on a common fallacy. You're going to need to suck it up if you want to debate such violently contentious issues on the internet, and I guarantee you having a 100% female presence would do nothing to make it less...whatever it is you're complaining about. I'm not even arguing with you, I'm just refuting a fallacy and pointing out a wrinkle. These are some of the more educated, open-minded, and liberal (I'm using this in the broader sense) people you're ever going to find on the internet. If you find this community unpleasant you're in for a hell of a shock if you start really plumbing the Internet for the depths of mediocrity.
- Mz 16y ago
  Re: getting my sons to do more housework: One of my explicit goals was to make sure they can care for themselves. My oldest son has the same medical condition I have. We have gotten off all the drugs and stuff and gotten well by eating better, keeping the house stringently clean, etc. He literally could die if he moved out (or I died) and he didn't know how to care for himself. Re: "domestic slave" -- seems to me like good shorthand. You knew pretty clearly what I meant -- someone really unfairly bogged down with uncompensated labor -- without a lot of elaborating, offended or not. Re: Female audience. That's a laugh. Women seem to find me far more intimidating and offensive than men do. Re: Arguing: That has two meanings, one of which is to debate it and the other is to fight about it. I don't mind a debate though my experience is that most folks on the internet don't really do that. They pretty quickly deteriorate into fighting. Nor am I making excuses. I have pushed the envelope on topics like this many, many times in male dominated forums. I have a fairly good idea of how hard it is do this kind of thing and that one of the big issues is the framing and underlying assumptions of what other people say. It very, very frequently becomes "If you don't agree it's black, then you must be one of those psychos that think it's white. And that is so amazingly obviously wrong that you must be a retard." There is no room for discussing shades of grey, much less a more technicolor version of reality. If I don't agree 100% with their assertion it's black, they peg me as one of those "100% white" folks. I get routinely slammed as being someone who strongly holds the "opposite" view for attempting to say "I don't see it that way". It really matters very little what the topic is -- politics, gender issues, homeschooling, you name it. If I say I homeschooled my kids, I must be one of those folks who wants to dismantle public school. If I say I don't think the anti-vax crowd is completely crazy, someone inevitably asks me what made me choose to not vaccinate my kids at all (which is a fallacious assumption and real example from this very forum). And on and on. So a public forum is a quite difficult place to try to articulate a view that is substantially different from the "standard positions" everyone is familiar with. All attempts to side step the repeated efforts of other people to peg me as this, that, or the other makes it incredibly difficult or downright impossible to convey how I really see it. Thus a blog would be a better option, and not out of cowardice.