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As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. It may even negatively impact some people. I've seen a recommendation that we should use "

As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. It may even negatively impact some people. I've seen a recommendation that we should use "on another hand" instead of "on the other hand". Because, you know, we should avoid seeing things as black and white. I agree. Things often have more than 2 sides. My English teacher said "on another hand" wasn't acceptable. You might be deducted point in a situation like TOEFL exam. Another example is "I ain't" in some other dialects. We don't want to discriminate against certain groups. But, at the same time, it's wrong to use those phrases :S Using a singular "they" is on a different level of being problematic. You don't wanna look illiterate in a situation like TOEFL exam and some other official situation. On another hand, you don't want to be publicly shamed and ganged up for misgendering others.

lorenzhs 7y ago
You already use "you" as both singular and plural. Historically, "you" used to be the plural form of "ye". Grammatically, singular "you" works just the same as singular "they", so it's not confusing at all (I'm also a non-native speaker). See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes The references to "on another hand" I've found have been mostly historical (e.g., a Senate speech from 1830) and/or discussions whether it is correct. I can't find anyone advocating its use.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was acceptable. This would mean my whole country (I'm from SEA) was taught the wrong thing. ---- I've googled a little. For example, this article recommends we avoid using singular "they" (https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-...). Quote: "Context clearly matters. If you are training English students for the TOEFL or IELTS exams, you should emphasize that using “they” for a singular pronoun will cost students points. Hence, it must be avoided on standardized exams. Yet – like many American advertisers and recent Presidents (Obama, Trump, Clinton) – I find the use comfortable and legitimate." TOEFL/IELTS really needs to publish official guidelines on these new words.
  - lorenzhs 7y ago
    Singular "they" isn't even new, it's been used since the 1300s at least: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they That said, it used to be rather uncommon in more recent times, which is now changing again. Standardized tests currently consider its use a mistake, just as »[i]n the 1600s, some writers objected to the use of "singular you" (compare objections to the "singular they")« (wiktionary). Languages constantly evolve.
    - ergocoder 7y ago
      The language can change. I understand. What I have problems with is: 1. We publicly shame people for not use the new word. Calling them names like bigots. 2. Your authority thinks the new word is wrong. It just seems, at this point, you should scream at your authorities to support singular "they" officially. Here they are: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ Instead, we spend energy and effort publicly shaming random people.
  - munmaek 7y ago
    It only became more acceptable a few decades ago, and relatively recently surged in popularity. "They" was first used like this hundreds of years ago, so it's not a new concept. Many EFL curriculums in foreign countries are out of date, because languages change all the time. If TOEFL or whatever says otherwise, they are wrong and out of date. Not that anyone seriously thinks those standardized tests actually reflect any meaningful grasp of a language. Anyway. "They" is perfectly fine as a gender neutral, singular or plural pronoun. Anyone that says otherwise is clinging to prescriptivism and is in denial. [0]: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
    - ergocoder 7y ago
      First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell me what to use. Avoiding misgendering is great. Yeah, I wanna do that. The real issue is: TOEFL actively punishes people for using singular "they". But we also tell everyone to use singular "they". If they don't, they will face a heavy backlash (e.g. being called bigots). Here are the people we should be screaming at: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/
Freak_NL 7y ago
> My English teacher said "on another hand" wasn't acceptable. You might be deducted point in a situation like TOEFL exam. That is likely because 'on the other hand' is what is known as an idiom; a fixed saying. Even if some people are advocating for change of certain idioms, as a (second language) student of a language you are ill-advised to take the liberty of promoting such a novel phrasing, because people may find it hard to tell if you are making a mistake (and that they should adjust their language to your perceived level) or are in fact advocating a different way of saying things. When taking an exam you are of course expected to use only language that is currently seen as obviously correct, because the examiner cannot tell the difference either. > "on another hand" This seems silly. You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. There are other idioms for enumerating more than two.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  > This seems silly. You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. I remember (from a psychology book, actually) that the reasoning is: what you say impacts what you think. You want to compare two viewpoints. But you arrogantly think that these are the only 2 viewpoints that can possibly exist. If you keep using "on the other hand", you will be inclined to see things as black and white. It's a valid argument, though one might wonder how much wording impacts our internal mind.
- stordoff 7y ago
  > You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. There are other idioms for enumerating more than two. I sometimes find myself using "on the other hand" to contrast three or more view points, and end up saying "on the other hand" twice. Occasionally, I'll use "on one hand...on the other hand...on another hand/on a third hand".
teddyh 7y ago
> I've seen a recommendation that we should use "on another hand" instead of "on the other hand". http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/O/on-the-gripping-hand.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/O/on-the-gripping-hand....
sampo 7y ago
> As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. I am non-native as well, but my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns. To me, using singular "they" is actually easier as it is closer to how I speak and think in my native language. The normal English (as well as most other Indo-European languages) way of using she or he, always meant I have to stop a bit to think, to add this extra bit of information I wouldn't have to if I were speaking in my native language. Let's imagine a language that doesn't have a word for red, but has "wine" for darker shades of red and "rose" for brighter shades of red. You just can't talk about "red" in general, you always have to specify if you're meaning the darker or the brighter kind. That's a bit how I feel always needing to specify she or he.

lorenzhs 7y ago

You already use "you" as both singular and plural. Historically, "you" used to be the plural form of "ye". Grammatically, singular "you" works just the same as singular "they", so it's not confusing at all (I'm also a non-native speaker). See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes The references to "on another hand" I've found have been mostly historical (e.g., a Senate speech from 1830) and/or discussions whether it is correct. I can't find anyone advocating its use.

ergocoder 7y ago
But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was acceptable. This would mean my whole country (I'm from SEA) was taught the wrong thing. ---- I've googled a little. For example, this article recommends we avoid using singular "they" (https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-...). Quote: "Context clearly matters. If you are training English students for the TOEFL or IELTS exams, you should emphasize that using “they” for a singular pronoun will cost students points. Hence, it must be avoided on standardized exams. Yet – like many American advertisers and recent Presidents (Obama, Trump, Clinton) – I find the use comfortable and legitimate." TOEFL/IELTS really needs to publish official guidelines on these new words.
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  Singular "they" isn't even new, it's been used since the 1300s at least: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=they That said, it used to be rather uncommon in more recent times, which is now changing again. Standardized tests currently consider its use a mistake, just as »[i]n the 1600s, some writers objected to the use of "singular you" (compare objections to the "singular they")« (wiktionary). Languages constantly evolve.
  - ergocoder 7y ago
    The language can change. I understand. What I have problems with is: 1. We publicly shame people for not use the new word. Calling them names like bigots. 2. Your authority thinks the new word is wrong. It just seems, at this point, you should scream at your authorities to support singular "they" officially. Here they are: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ Instead, we spend energy and effort publicly shaming random people.
- munmaek 7y ago
  It only became more acceptable a few decades ago, and relatively recently surged in popularity. "They" was first used like this hundreds of years ago, so it's not a new concept. Many EFL curriculums in foreign countries are out of date, because languages change all the time. If TOEFL or whatever says otherwise, they are wrong and out of date. Not that anyone seriously thinks those standardized tests actually reflect any meaningful grasp of a language. Anyway. "They" is perfectly fine as a gender neutral, singular or plural pronoun. Anyone that says otherwise is clinging to prescriptivism and is in denial. [0]: https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
  - ergocoder 7y ago
    First of all, I want to remark that I'm a non-native english speaker. I have no issue with using singular "they". You are the owner of the language. Just tell me what to use. Avoiding misgendering is great. Yeah, I wanna do that. The real issue is: TOEFL actively punishes people for using singular "they". But we also tell everyone to use singular "they". If they don't, they will face a heavy backlash (e.g. being called bigots). Here are the people we should be screaming at: https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/ https://www.ets.org/about/who/leadership/

Freak_NL 7y ago

> My English teacher said "on another hand" wasn't acceptable. You might be deducted point in a situation like TOEFL exam. That is likely because 'on the other hand' is what is known as an idiom; a fixed saying. Even if some people are advocating for change of certain idioms, as a (second language) student of a language you are ill-advised to take the liberty of promoting such a novel phrasing, because people may find it hard to tell if you are making a mistake (and that they should adjust their language to your perceived level) or are in fact advocating a different way of saying things. When taking an exam you are of course expected to use only language that is currently seen as obviously correct, because the examiner cannot tell the difference either. > "on another hand" This seems silly. You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. There are other idioms for enumerating more than two.

ergocoder 7y ago
> This seems silly. You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. I remember (from a psychology book, actually) that the reasoning is: what you say impacts what you think. You want to compare two viewpoints. But you arrogantly think that these are the only 2 viewpoints that can possibly exist. If you keep using "on the other hand", you will be inclined to see things as black and white. It's a valid argument, though one might wonder how much wording impacts our internal mind.
stordoff 7y ago
> You use on the other hand to contrast two viewpoints. There are other idioms for enumerating more than two. I sometimes find myself using "on the other hand" to contrast three or more view points, and end up saying "on the other hand" twice. Occasionally, I'll use "on one hand...on the other hand...on another hand/on a third hand".

teddyh 7y ago

> I've seen a recommendation that we should use "on another hand" instead of "on the other hand". http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/O/on-the-gripping-hand.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/O/on-the-gripping-hand....

sampo 7y ago

> As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. I am non-native as well, but my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns. To me, using singular "they" is actually easier as it is closer to how I speak and think in my native language. The normal English (as well as most other Indo-European languages) way of using she or he, always meant I have to stop a bit to think, to add this extra bit of information I wouldn't have to if I were speaking in my native language. Let's imagine a language that doesn't have a word for red, but has "wine" for darker shades of red and "rose" for brighter shades of red. You just can't talk about "red" in general, you always have to specify if you're meaning the darker or the brighter kind. That's a bit how I feel always needing to specify she or he.