6 ms·

This was touched on briefly in the article, but maybe someone else here can shed some light on this here. Is it not super confusing for gender neutral to use t

This was touched on briefly in the article, but maybe someone else here can shed some light on this here. Is it not super confusing for gender neutral to use the 'they' pronoun? It's already in use in the English language. Every time I've heard people try to use it in conversation it's sounded like an Abbott and Costello routine.

reanimus 7y ago
It's been around for ages as a gender neutral pronoun: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h...
- Symbiote 7y ago
  (Native English speaker) I find it pretty easy to use "they" when the gender is unknown, which fits a lot of writing online. I find it much, much more difficult to remember to call my friend's partner, who looks in every way to me very feminine, and has an unambiguously feminine name, "they" rather than "she".
  - reanimus 7y ago
    I don't really find it any harder than picking up someone going my Mrs. rather than Ms. or someone changing last name. There's usually an adjustment period, of course, but it's not that hard to pick up personally.
- edflsafoiewq 7y ago
  With an indefinite referent though (from you link: "a man", "a person", "every one"). Not with reference to specific definite person. "Jack got their jacket" does not usually parse as Jack getting his own jacket.
  - munmaek 7y ago
    The point is that it's not an unknown, made up word that came from nowhere. It has been used in the English language for hundreds of years. It's not confusing to use because one can infer from context.
    - jfk13 7y ago
      Indeed, it has. But not universally; its use has primarily been limited to in certain contexts. To quote from the OED's definition of "they": "2. In anaphoric reference to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined gender: he or she." OK, it certainly recognises a singular usage... "Especially in relation to a noun phrase involving one of the indefinite determiners or pronouns any, each, every, no, some, anybody, anyone, etc." Aha - so this usage is not (historically, at least) equally well established for all contexts. Indeed, the entry goes on to note that: "This use has sometimes been considered erroneous." So it's hardly surprising if some people feel a bit uncomfortable being told they should be embracing it more widely.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    What? "Jack got their jacket before saying goodnight" scans totally reasonably to me as commonly used English? I suspect the degree to which this sounds fine is colloquial. But it's not that hard of a transition to make either. It might seem awkward for a bit, but it settles in pretty quickly.
sawaruna 7y ago
What's the confusing part? It's often used in both plural and singular, for the latter mainly when you don't know the identity of the person. Not totally confusing to use it for an identity you do know IMO.
ergocoder 7y ago
As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. It may even negatively impact some people. I've seen a recommendation that we should use "on another hand" instead of "on the other hand". Because, you know, we should avoid seeing things as black and white. I agree. Things often have more than 2 sides. My English teacher said "on another hand" wasn't acceptable. You might be deducted point in a situation like TOEFL exam. Another example is "I ain't" in some other dialects. We don't want to discriminate against certain groups. But, at the same time, it's wrong to use those phrases :S Using a singular "they" is on a different level of being problematic. You don't wanna look illiterate in a situation like TOEFL exam and some other official situation. On another hand, you don't want to be publicly shamed and ganged up for misgendering others.
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  You already use "you" as both singular and plural. Historically, "you" used to be the plural form of "ye". Grammatically, singular "you" works just the same as singular "they", so it's not confusing at all (I'm also a non-native speaker). See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes The references to "on another hand" I've found have been mostly historical (e.g., a Senate speech from 1830) and/or discussions whether it is correct. I can't find anyone advocating its use.
  - ergocoder 7y ago
    But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was acceptable. This would mean my whole country (I'm from SEA) was taught the wrong thing. ---- I've googled a little. For example, this article recommends we avoid using singular "they" (https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-...). Quote: "Context clearly matters. If you are training English students for the TOEFL or IELTS exams, you should emphasize that using “they” for a singular pronoun will cost students points. Hence, it must be avoided on standardized exams. Yet – like many American advertisers and recent Presidents (Obama, Trump, Clinton) – I find the use comfortable and legitimate." TOEFL/IELTS really needs to publish official guidelines on these new words.
sitharus 7y ago
They avoidance of ‘they’ as a singular personal pronoun is a recent occurrence, historically it has been used frequently when gender is unknown or unclear. The Oxford English Dictionary did some research on the history last year https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they... The only recent change is people expressing a desire to use they/them as their own forms of address, but this isn’t an invalid use.
goto11 7y ago
"They" have been used like that for ages. It is certainly less clunky than writing "he or she" in cases where you are not referring to any particular person.
83457 7y ago
The problem is there is no alternative in English other than "it" which is pejorative.
freehunter 7y ago
No more confusing that any other words that have two meanings. When you hammer a nail, you certainly don't want to hit your fingers. But if you miss the nail with the hammer, you might hit your nail, which would be painful. And you have to be really careful asking someone if they want a date. If you mean the fruit of a palm tree but they think you want to start a romantic relationship, things might get tricky. And certainly less confusing than words that are spelled the same but have wildly different meanings depending on pronunciation (read, past tense meaning to have finished reading a section of text, or read, future/present tense meaning has not finished reading a section of text).
- throws_gender 7y ago
  I guess it's better if I give a concrete example of a conversation I recently observed. Bob is gender neutral. Uses the 'they' pronoun. In a conversation with people, instead of saying "Bob helped me out with this problem", someone says "They helped me out with this problem", referring to Bob, and no one, including Bob, has any idea who they are referring to.
  - freehunter 7y ago
    Every language has confusing pieces like this, which is why context is important. Your example could certainly be confusing, but if even Bob doesn't know who you're referring to, there would likely be confusion in "he helped me out with this problem". It would likely make more sense to say "I talked to Bob. They helped me out with this problem." Pronouns in any form will make a conversation more confusing if there's no context. If you want to be absolutely clear in your communications, you'd get rid of all pronouns completely. "I talked with Bob. Bob helped me out with this problem. I want to thank Bob for Bob's help. Bob can we talk after this meeting?"
  - solidsnack9000 7y ago
    With a definite person it is pretty unusual, yeah.
cryptozeus 7y ago
Yes it is , it so is.
cdirkx 7y ago
I have never used in conversation, but sometimes use it in writing. My native language has a gender neutral pronoun, so it did not take too much getting used to in English. You say the double usage of 'they' might be confusing, but in pratice believe it has been around for long enough on the internet that I have a high enough confidence that most readers will understand it's use or at least not be too distracted by it.
solidsnack9000 7y ago
It is a long accepted usage, with regards to abstract persons, like "one".

reanimus 7y ago

It's been around for ages as a gender neutral pronoun: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h...

Symbiote 7y ago
(Native English speaker) I find it pretty easy to use "they" when the gender is unknown, which fits a lot of writing online. I find it much, much more difficult to remember to call my friend's partner, who looks in every way to me very feminine, and has an unambiguously feminine name, "they" rather than "she".
- reanimus 7y ago
  I don't really find it any harder than picking up someone going my Mrs. rather than Ms. or someone changing last name. There's usually an adjustment period, of course, but it's not that hard to pick up personally.
edflsafoiewq 7y ago
With an indefinite referent though (from you link: "a man", "a person", "every one"). Not with reference to specific definite person. "Jack got their jacket" does not usually parse as Jack getting his own jacket.
- munmaek 7y ago
  The point is that it's not an unknown, made up word that came from nowhere. It has been used in the English language for hundreds of years. It's not confusing to use because one can infer from context.
  - jfk13 7y ago
    Indeed, it has. But not universally; its use has primarily been limited to in certain contexts. To quote from the OED's definition of "they": "2. In anaphoric reference to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined gender: he or she." OK, it certainly recognises a singular usage... "Especially in relation to a noun phrase involving one of the indefinite determiners or pronouns any, each, every, no, some, anybody, anyone, etc." Aha - so this usage is not (historically, at least) equally well established for all contexts. Indeed, the entry goes on to note that: "This use has sometimes been considered erroneous." So it's hardly surprising if some people feel a bit uncomfortable being told they should be embracing it more widely.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  What? "Jack got their jacket before saying goodnight" scans totally reasonably to me as commonly used English? I suspect the degree to which this sounds fine is colloquial. But it's not that hard of a transition to make either. It might seem awkward for a bit, but it settles in pretty quickly.

sawaruna 7y ago

What's the confusing part? It's often used in both plural and singular, for the latter mainly when you don't know the identity of the person. Not totally confusing to use it for an identity you do know IMO.

ergocoder 7y ago

As a non-native english speaker, using singular "they" is confusing. It may even negatively impact some people. I've seen a recommendation that we should use "on another hand" instead of "on the other hand". Because, you know, we should avoid seeing things as black and white. I agree. Things often have more than 2 sides. My English teacher said "on another hand" wasn't acceptable. You might be deducted point in a situation like TOEFL exam. Another example is "I ain't" in some other dialects. We don't want to discriminate against certain groups. But, at the same time, it's wrong to use those phrases :S Using a singular "they" is on a different level of being problematic. You don't wanna look illiterate in a situation like TOEFL exam and some other official situation. On another hand, you don't want to be publicly shamed and ganged up for misgendering others.

lorenzhs 7y ago
You already use "you" as both singular and plural. Historically, "you" used to be the plural form of "ye". Grammatically, singular "you" works just the same as singular "they", so it's not confusing at all (I'm also a non-native speaker). See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you#Usage_notes The references to "on another hand" I've found have been mostly historical (e.g., a Senate speech from 1830) and/or discussions whether it is correct. I can't find anyone advocating its use.
- ergocoder 7y ago
  But "you" are acceptable to use as plural or singular. At the very least, I was taught this way since the beginning. We weren't taught that singular "they" was acceptable. This would mean my whole country (I'm from SEA) was taught the wrong thing. ---- I've googled a little. For example, this article recommends we avoid using singular "they" (https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-choosing-they-as-a-singular-pronoun https://www.compellingconversations.com/is-singular-they-ok-...). Quote: "Context clearly matters. If you are training English students for the TOEFL or IELTS exams, you should emphasize that using “they” for a singular pronoun will cost students points. Hence, it must be avoided on standardized exams. Yet – like many American advertisers and recent Presidents (Obama, Trump, Clinton) – I find the use comfortable and legitimate." TOEFL/IELTS really needs to publish official guidelines on these new words.

sitharus 7y ago

They avoidance of ‘they’ as a singular personal pronoun is a recent occurrence, historically it has been used frequently when gender is unknown or unclear. The Oxford English Dictionary did some research on the history last year https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they... The only recent change is people expressing a desire to use they/them as their own forms of address, but this isn’t an invalid use.

goto11 7y ago

"They" have been used like that for ages. It is certainly less clunky than writing "he or she" in cases where you are not referring to any particular person.

83457 7y ago

The problem is there is no alternative in English other than "it" which is pejorative.

freehunter 7y ago

No more confusing that any other words that have two meanings. When you hammer a nail, you certainly don't want to hit your fingers. But if you miss the nail with the hammer, you might hit your nail, which would be painful. And you have to be really careful asking someone if they want a date. If you mean the fruit of a palm tree but they think you want to start a romantic relationship, things might get tricky. And certainly less confusing than words that are spelled the same but have wildly different meanings depending on pronunciation (read, past tense meaning to have finished reading a section of text, or read, future/present tense meaning has not finished reading a section of text).

throws_gender 7y ago
I guess it's better if I give a concrete example of a conversation I recently observed. Bob is gender neutral. Uses the 'they' pronoun. In a conversation with people, instead of saying "Bob helped me out with this problem", someone says "They helped me out with this problem", referring to Bob, and no one, including Bob, has any idea who they are referring to.
- freehunter 7y ago
  Every language has confusing pieces like this, which is why context is important. Your example could certainly be confusing, but if even Bob doesn't know who you're referring to, there would likely be confusion in "he helped me out with this problem". It would likely make more sense to say "I talked to Bob. They helped me out with this problem." Pronouns in any form will make a conversation more confusing if there's no context. If you want to be absolutely clear in your communications, you'd get rid of all pronouns completely. "I talked with Bob. Bob helped me out with this problem. I want to thank Bob for Bob's help. Bob can we talk after this meeting?"
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  With a definite person it is pretty unusual, yeah.

cryptozeus 7y ago

Yes it is , it so is.

cdirkx 7y ago

I have never used in conversation, but sometimes use it in writing. My native language has a gender neutral pronoun, so it did not take too much getting used to in English. You say the double usage of 'they' might be confusing, but in pratice believe it has been around for long enough on the internet that I have a high enough confidence that most readers will understand it's use or at least not be too distracted by it.

solidsnack9000 7y ago

It is a long accepted usage, with regards to abstract persons, like "one".