4 ms·

To be fair, you are expressing an allegedly subjective account of your personal experience in what to me sounds like an overly assured and conclusive manner, co

To be fair, you are expressing an allegedly subjective account of your personal experience in what to me sounds like an overly assured and conclusive manner, coupled with expressions like "static typing zealots". It reads a bit like you are imply that there are only zealots and then there is this account you're sharing, which is the definitive truth. It similarly turns me off into trying to discuss this constructively, even though my experience of Haskell is almost a complete opposite of what you're saying here. I guess that leaves space for only low-effort discussion and people happy to hear that Haskell turns out to not be worth it after all.

tome 7y ago
> It similarly turns me off into trying to discuss this constructively, even though my experience of Haskell is almost a complete opposite of what you're saying here. I guess that leaves space for only low-effort discussion and people happy to hear that Haskell turns out to not be worth it after all. Let's hope there's another alternative: that those of us with seemingly opposite experience and opinion to mlthoughts2018 can encourage him/her to share more so that we can all learn something beneficial to our lives.
- feanaro 7y ago
  Yes. Especially because I am sure Haskell and similar languages have failure modes, in which the seemingly magical sauce I've personally experienced might not work, for one reason or another. I do believe that mlthoughts2018 worked in such an environment/codebase and it would be extremely useful to figures out what variables are involved in that.
mlthoughts2018 7y ago
My opinion is not allegedly subjective, it is subjective. I don’t expect anyone to do anything with the comments I write. They don’t prove anything, but someone may find it useful to hear that a person with experience decided to have a dissenting opinion of Haskell in practice. I will say, however, that just as I mentioned in my comment, I’m willing to say static typing is fine. There are lots of tools in a toolbox. It is one of them. I don’t believe a lot of commenters who seek out this discussion would give a similarly charitable view of dynamic typing, and in my real life experience, these are people who superficially dismiss projects written in dynamic languages, especially Python, on parochial grounds not rooted in reality. In other words, I see a lot of people in the Python community in real life saying, “Haskell is cool, you can do expressive things in it, but it makes certain other things hard and so for a wide range of tradeoffs I wouldn’t pick it.” But I see people in Scala, Haskell, Clojure, F# etc., communities saying, “Python is crap, so unsafe, so many bugs, it’s just a categorically wrong way to design and write programs.” So the discussion is (in my experience) extremely asymmetrical along these programming religion lines.
- tome 7y ago
  > I don’t believe a lot of commenters who seek out this discussion would give a similarly charitable view of dynamic typing, and in my real life experience, these are people who superficially dismiss projects written in dynamic languages, especially Python, on parochial grounds not rooted in reality. Fine, but that's a criticism of the people not the language. I'm interested in the latter and not really in the former, unless you're trying to say that they are somehow linked.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    > “Fine, but that's a criticism of the people not the language.” I totally agree, and my dissenting opinion of Haskell is not based on anything about people or communities, just on ergonomics of using it and working on a big legacy codebase of it in production. I mentioned the asymmetry of people who can be zealots about only one paradigm being The One True Way only in response to the parent comment I was responding to.

tome 7y ago

> It similarly turns me off into trying to discuss this constructively, even though my experience of Haskell is almost a complete opposite of what you're saying here. I guess that leaves space for only low-effort discussion and people happy to hear that Haskell turns out to not be worth it after all. Let's hope there's another alternative: that those of us with seemingly opposite experience and opinion to mlthoughts2018 can encourage him/her to share more so that we can all learn something beneficial to our lives.

feanaro 7y ago
Yes. Especially because I am sure Haskell and similar languages have failure modes, in which the seemingly magical sauce I've personally experienced might not work, for one reason or another. I do believe that mlthoughts2018 worked in such an environment/codebase and it would be extremely useful to figures out what variables are involved in that.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

My opinion is not allegedly subjective, it is subjective. I don’t expect anyone to do anything with the comments I write. They don’t prove anything, but someone may find it useful to hear that a person with experience decided to have a dissenting opinion of Haskell in practice. I will say, however, that just as I mentioned in my comment, I’m willing to say static typing is fine. There are lots of tools in a toolbox. It is one of them. I don’t believe a lot of commenters who seek out this discussion would give a similarly charitable view of dynamic typing, and in my real life experience, these are people who superficially dismiss projects written in dynamic languages, especially Python, on parochial grounds not rooted in reality. In other words, I see a lot of people in the Python community in real life saying, “Haskell is cool, you can do expressive things in it, but it makes certain other things hard and so for a wide range of tradeoffs I wouldn’t pick it.” But I see people in Scala, Haskell, Clojure, F# etc., communities saying, “Python is crap, so unsafe, so many bugs, it’s just a categorically wrong way to design and write programs.” So the discussion is (in my experience) extremely asymmetrical along these programming religion lines.

tome 7y ago
> I don’t believe a lot of commenters who seek out this discussion would give a similarly charitable view of dynamic typing, and in my real life experience, these are people who superficially dismiss projects written in dynamic languages, especially Python, on parochial grounds not rooted in reality. Fine, but that's a criticism of the people not the language. I'm interested in the latter and not really in the former, unless you're trying to say that they are somehow linked.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  > “Fine, but that's a criticism of the people not the language.” I totally agree, and my dissenting opinion of Haskell is not based on anything about people or communities, just on ergonomics of using it and working on a big legacy codebase of it in production. I mentioned the asymmetry of people who can be zealots about only one paradigm being The One True Way only in response to the parent comment I was responding to.