5 ms·

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gas

by hnarn 7y ago

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gasoline cars with coal powered electricity plants makes a lot of sense, unless maybe the CO2 is captured and stored, but at that point you might as well go nuclear (which I am a proponent of, as the only realistic alternative at this point).

_ph_ 7y ago
Even with the current mix in the electric grid, electric cars produce quite a bit less CO2 than any combustion engined car and get cleaner as more coal power plants are decommissioned. It is happening perhaps to slow, but it is happening. In 2019 electricity generation from coal was quite a bit down compared to 2018 due to CO2 certificates finally having an effect.
afarrell 7y ago
> unless So you’d agree with doing them in parallel? Do you think car manufacturers should wait to make electric cars until all power plants have a timeline to convert? Or that power plants should wait until all car manufacturers are switching? Or that they should both act without waiting for the other?
AnonymousPlanet 7y ago
Internal combustion engines pollute the air where I'm living. Moving pollution away from residential areas is a worthwhile task in itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I live in a densely populated country. Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Also my country does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. Nuclear does not look like the sane option here.
- fjfaase 7y ago
  An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.
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  - AnonymousPlanet 7y ago
    > An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this was true, there would have been no diesel scandal at all. However, car exhaust is indeed very dangerous to your health, especially if you live next to heavy traffic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Health_and_environment_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Health_and_environment_eff... > Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now. They should, but reality is different - https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/abgasskandal-manipulierte-lkw-aus-osteuropa-sorgen-fuer-massive-schaeden-a-1130332.html https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/abgasskandal-manipuliert... - https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29/WP.29-172-28e.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29/WP.2...
    - avar 7y ago
      > Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. QUOTE Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and nonexhaust traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such as brake, tyre, clutch and road surface wear or already exist in the environment as deposited material and become resuspended due to traffic induced turbulence. It is estimated that exhaust and non-exhaust sources contribute almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. However, as exhaust emissions control become stricter, relative contributions of non-exhaust sources to traffic related emissions will increasingly become more significant. END QUOTE Source: http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC89231/jrc89231-online%20final%20version%202.pdf http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JR...
- ratsbane 7y ago
  fjfaase, your statement "An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine" is very surprising and not at all what I would expect. Can you cite any sources for that or explain it a bit more? Aside from particulate matter in exhaust, regenerative braking doesn't produce dust like friction braking does, thus I'd expect electric cars to produce much less dust than ICE vehicles.
  - madaxe_again 7y ago
    Rubber tyres on asphalt produce a fair bit of very fine particulate matter, and are currently ubiquitous in vehicles - I imagine this is what fjfaase was referring to. That said, the contribution is tiny - on the order of 2.5% of total roadside PM10. https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/atmosphere/atmosphere-10-00099/article_deploy/atmosphere-10-00099.pdf https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/atmosphere/atmosphere-10-0...
- kortilla 7y ago
  >Also my country does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. I don’t think you realize how little there is to deal with. It could easily be exported to a competent country. It’s shocking how people are willing to effectively endorse burning fossil fuels for base load to destroy the environment over the next 50 years because of something that might be a problem in a few thousand years.
Tade0 7y ago
Germany's grid is not powered solely by coal but a decent mix of sources with various carbon intensities. A typical EV in Germany has a carbon footprint of a vehicle burning anywhere in the range of 2-5l/100km(including manufacturing). EVs in Germany are consistently less carbon intensive than ICE cars - especially in the city.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  The "average" EV in Germany uses cleaner electricity than the grid, because there are > 0 EV drivers who charge their cars with their own PV setup.

by hnarn 7y ago

_ph_ 7y ago

Even with the current mix in the electric grid, electric cars produce quite a bit less CO2 than any combustion engined car and get cleaner as more coal power plants are decommissioned. It is happening perhaps to slow, but it is happening. In 2019 electricity generation from coal was quite a bit down compared to 2018 due to CO2 certificates finally having an effect.

afarrell 7y ago

> unless So you’d agree with doing them in parallel? Do you think car manufacturers should wait to make electric cars until all power plants have a timeline to convert? Or that power plants should wait until all car manufacturers are switching? Or that they should both act without waiting for the other?

AnonymousPlanet 7y ago

Internal combustion engines pollute the air where I'm living. Moving pollution away from residential areas is a worthwhile task in itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I live in a densely populated country. Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Also my country does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. Nuclear does not look like the sane option here.

fjfaase 7y ago
An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.
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- deleted 7y ago
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- AnonymousPlanet 7y ago
  > An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this was true, there would have been no diesel scandal at all. However, car exhaust is indeed very dangerous to your health, especially if you live next to heavy traffic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Health_and_environment_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Health_and_environment_eff... > Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now. They should, but reality is different - https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/abgasskandal-manipulierte-lkw-aus-osteuropa-sorgen-fuer-massive-schaeden-a-1130332.html https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/abgasskandal-manipuliert... - https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29/WP.29-172-28e.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2017/wp29/WP.2...
  - avar 7y ago
    > Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. QUOTE Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and nonexhaust traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such as brake, tyre, clutch and road surface wear or already exist in the environment as deposited material and become resuspended due to traffic induced turbulence. It is estimated that exhaust and non-exhaust sources contribute almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. However, as exhaust emissions control become stricter, relative contributions of non-exhaust sources to traffic related emissions will increasingly become more significant. END QUOTE Source: http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC89231/jrc89231-online%20final%20version%202.pdf http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JR...
ratsbane 7y ago
fjfaase, your statement "An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine" is very surprising and not at all what I would expect. Can you cite any sources for that or explain it a bit more? Aside from particulate matter in exhaust, regenerative braking doesn't produce dust like friction braking does, thus I'd expect electric cars to produce much less dust than ICE vehicles.
- madaxe_again 7y ago
  Rubber tyres on asphalt produce a fair bit of very fine particulate matter, and are currently ubiquitous in vehicles - I imagine this is what fjfaase was referring to. That said, the contribution is tiny - on the order of 2.5% of total roadside PM10. https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/atmosphere/atmosphere-10-00099/article_deploy/atmosphere-10-00099.pdf https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/atmosphere/atmosphere-10-0...
kortilla 7y ago
>Also my country does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. I don’t think you realize how little there is to deal with. It could easily be exported to a competent country. It’s shocking how people are willing to effectively endorse burning fossil fuels for base load to destroy the environment over the next 50 years because of something that might be a problem in a few thousand years.

Tade0 7y ago

Germany's grid is not powered solely by coal but a decent mix of sources with various carbon intensities. A typical EV in Germany has a carbon footprint of a vehicle burning anywhere in the range of 2-5l/100km(including manufacturing). EVs in Germany are consistently less carbon intensive than ICE cars - especially in the city.

lazyjones 7y ago
The "average" EV in Germany uses cleaner electricity than the grid, because there are > 0 EV drivers who charge their cars with their own PV setup.