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When you're developing such a crucial part of an operating system, wouldn't you want to put security pretty high at the top of the priorities list? If I were a

When you're developing such a crucial part of an operating system, wouldn't you want to put security pretty high at the top of the priorities list? If I were an average consumer, I would care much more about my device being secure, than having real time audio.

pnako 7y ago
>If I were an average consumer If you were, you would behave like one, i.e. not care that much (if at all) about security. What you are saying is "I do care about my device being secure".
- kuzimoto 7y ago
  Yes, I suppose that's true. I should have worded it differently. Perhaps, the average person would be more upset/notice if they were negatively impacted as the result of a security issue, than if some feature, e.g. real time audio were missing, which I'm sure no one would even notice.
  - girvo 7y ago
    You’d think no one would notice real time audio being missing on android devices, but that discounts the huge amount of music creation thats done on mobile platforms these days. It’s a way bigger market than you’d think!
kbenson 7y ago
You act as if we don't have an experiment about exactly this going on for decades that says the exact opposite, but we do. It's called OpenBSD. The average consumer doesn't care, because it's less performant in some cases and certain software doesn't work or work as well. It's not even a choice between better security and real-time audio, since the average consumer doesn't even know about that unless specifically called out by marketing. For phones it's about what looks better, both physically and digitally. It's about how the emojis look, how good the pictures the camera takes look (or how good you're told they look), and how responsive and smooth the screen movements are. The average consumer goes off what they can immediately see and what they're told by marketing, and by what they feel social pressure to buy. The discerning technical expert goes off marketing (but a different set of claims), and a bit more of a discerning eye, and while far more knowledgeable than the average consumer, is still mostly driven by hearsay. The number of people with enough knowledge to actually make a real data driven choice is probably much less than 0.0001% of people, and that's far from average. I'm not one of them, but I can look at the systems often affected, make some assumptions about how many people know enough about them to speak usefully on risks they actually have, and do some napkin statistics to know almost nobody else is either, even here. It's easy to call out the average consumer, but truthfully, the last time you bought a phone or computer, how deeply did you analyze the actual security considerations to do with the different aspects of the system, and how much did you rely on what some site told you, trusted recommendations, what you already preferred, and your hunch was which was better? How many millions of lines of code are involved in these systems now? How could you, or any of us actually do anything other than that?

pnako 7y ago

>If I were an average consumer If you were, you would behave like one, i.e. not care that much (if at all) about security. What you are saying is "I do care about my device being secure".

kuzimoto 7y ago
Yes, I suppose that's true. I should have worded it differently. Perhaps, the average person would be more upset/notice if they were negatively impacted as the result of a security issue, than if some feature, e.g. real time audio were missing, which I'm sure no one would even notice.
- girvo 7y ago
  You’d think no one would notice real time audio being missing on android devices, but that discounts the huge amount of music creation thats done on mobile platforms these days. It’s a way bigger market than you’d think!

kbenson 7y ago

You act as if we don't have an experiment about exactly this going on for decades that says the exact opposite, but we do. It's called OpenBSD. The average consumer doesn't care, because it's less performant in some cases and certain software doesn't work or work as well. It's not even a choice between better security and real-time audio, since the average consumer doesn't even know about that unless specifically called out by marketing. For phones it's about what looks better, both physically and digitally. It's about how the emojis look, how good the pictures the camera takes look (or how good you're told they look), and how responsive and smooth the screen movements are. The average consumer goes off what they can immediately see and what they're told by marketing, and by what they feel social pressure to buy. The discerning technical expert goes off marketing (but a different set of claims), and a bit more of a discerning eye, and while far more knowledgeable than the average consumer, is still mostly driven by hearsay. The number of people with enough knowledge to actually make a real data driven choice is probably much less than 0.0001% of people, and that's far from average. I'm not one of them, but I can look at the systems often affected, make some assumptions about how many people know enough about them to speak usefully on risks they actually have, and do some napkin statistics to know almost nobody else is either, even here. It's easy to call out the average consumer, but truthfully, the last time you bought a phone or computer, how deeply did you analyze the actual security considerations to do with the different aspects of the system, and how much did you rely on what some site told you, trusted recommendations, what you already preferred, and your hunch was which was better? How many millions of lines of code are involved in these systems now? How could you, or any of us actually do anything other than that?