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> But I do know that knowingly and actively hurting people "because society does it too" when you could trivially avoid it is reprehensible My argument isn't "

> But I do know that knowingly and actively hurting people "because society does it too" when you could trivially avoid it is reprehensible My argument isn't "do it because society does it too", it's we already have systems in place to give people the therapeutic treatment they need to get past issues like this, which are issues, because it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's beliefs.

chipotle_coyote 7y ago
So let me get this straight: - You meet Gabrielle, and call her Gabbi. - She says "I don't like that nickname, could you use Bree?" - You say, "No, I'm going to call you Gabbi, because you should not expect society to shape itself around coddling your beliefs, GABBI." Honestly, you probably wouldn't do that, right? I mean, maybe you would, but it'd... kind of make you a jerk. It would be a stupid, stupid hill to die on. So why is it different with pronouns?
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  > stupid hill to die on Of late I've been saying not the mole hill I'd choose to die on. Also the question what's in it for me if I'm right? If the answer is 'nothing' we're done here.
- michannne 7y ago
  > Honestly, you probably wouldn't do that, right? No, and I never said I would, and that example does nothing for or against my argument. So making up a scenario, saying it'd make me <some negative term nobody wants to be associated with>, and asking me "If you wouldn't do X, why would you do Y?" does not sound like it will progress this discussion whatsoever
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    It won't progress this discussion because you avoided engaging with the question at the end. If I ask you to use a pronoun for me that in your judgement is "incorrect," why is your judgement more important than my request? If you say, "You asked for 'he,' but you look like a 'she' to me, so I'm going to use 'she,'" then why aren't you the one being the jerk just as much as the person who insists on calling someone the wrong name?
- atq2119 7y ago
  Pronouns are different from names because there is a very strong correlation between pronouns and certain physical aspects of people.[0] What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes. Our minds are built on pattern matching and working with such correlations, so it really shouldn't be a surprise that asking people to go against it is going to tick some of them off: you're asking them to enter into a state of cognitive dissonance, which can be unpleasant. Names, on the other hand, are really quite arbitrary and independent of physical attributes. So yes, there's an important difference. [0] I believe these kinds of correlation are what people intuitively mean when they talk of biological gender and the like, which make most of the responses against this argument miss the point...
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    In civil society we forgo our intuitions all the time - our moral intuitions are frequently superseded by law, our intuitions about what atoms look like are superseded by a university Physics course, etc. - but your response I see repeatedly, you don't say we should give into intuition, you say that some people would be "ticked off" by being asked to do something against intuition. Part of the movement to get people to use the correct pronouns to refer to someone is really just the movement against the epistemic authority of some forms of intuition. As an aside, in Western society names are generally not independent of physical attributes, and most names are gendered as well. I know very few people with unisex names.
    - fatbird 7y ago
      This shouldn't be downvoted; it's a very good point addressing a basic problem with the "call 'em as I see 'em" side of the argument.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    "What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes." Yes. Exactly. That's what's being asked of them. To follow someone's request out of courtesy. Again: why is this difficult?
- anon12345690 7y ago
  first, yes you can call her whatever you want. its called freedom. second, yea pronouns are different. they are actual nouns in the language used to describe people by what they are. theyre exactly the opposite of names which are completely random things you can claim third, you know most people use pronouns that match a name and looks? so if you change gender and change your name then people are probably gonna be using the right pronoun anyway
mthoms 7y ago
> it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's beliefs What indication do you have that a majority of the "society" in question (Stack Overflow) has a problem with addressing people in the manner they prefer? In other words, have you considered the possibility that you are the one with an opinion or belief that runs contrary to what this "society" expects of its members? If so, are you expecting to be coddled?
- michannne 7y ago
  Judging from the overwhelming negative response to what SO did, I'm confident that I am not the one with the controversial beliefs.
  - mthoms 7y ago
    You're seeing what you want to see. The controversy has little to do with that. How SO treated the moderator and handled the issue publicly is what's raising flags. You know, it's possible to support the pronoun policy while still being against how the moderator was treated. It seems to be an opportunistic vocal minority that is trying to make this political.
    - michannne 7y ago
      It is already political. I raised this point to another user - changing policies is political. If by, political you mean dealing with government policy, not sure what that has to do with this discussion.
- anon12345690 7y ago
  the fact that 99.999% of people throughout history have gotten along just fine without worrying about different pronouns that dont match their gender

chipotle_coyote 7y ago

So let me get this straight: - You meet Gabrielle, and call her Gabbi. - She says "I don't like that nickname, could you use Bree?" - You say, "No, I'm going to call you Gabbi, because you should not expect society to shape itself around coddling your beliefs, GABBI." Honestly, you probably wouldn't do that, right? I mean, maybe you would, but it'd... kind of make you a jerk. It would be a stupid, stupid hill to die on. So why is it different with pronouns?

Gibbon1 7y ago
> stupid hill to die on Of late I've been saying not the mole hill I'd choose to die on. Also the question what's in it for me if I'm right? If the answer is 'nothing' we're done here.
michannne 7y ago
> Honestly, you probably wouldn't do that, right? No, and I never said I would, and that example does nothing for or against my argument. So making up a scenario, saying it'd make me <some negative term nobody wants to be associated with>, and asking me "If you wouldn't do X, why would you do Y?" does not sound like it will progress this discussion whatsoever
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  It won't progress this discussion because you avoided engaging with the question at the end. If I ask you to use a pronoun for me that in your judgement is "incorrect," why is your judgement more important than my request? If you say, "You asked for 'he,' but you look like a 'she' to me, so I'm going to use 'she,'" then why aren't you the one being the jerk just as much as the person who insists on calling someone the wrong name?
atq2119 7y ago
Pronouns are different from names because there is a very strong correlation between pronouns and certain physical aspects of people.[0] What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes. Our minds are built on pattern matching and working with such correlations, so it really shouldn't be a surprise that asking people to go against it is going to tick some of them off: you're asking them to enter into a state of cognitive dissonance, which can be unpleasant. Names, on the other hand, are really quite arbitrary and independent of physical attributes. So yes, there's an important difference. [0] I believe these kinds of correlation are what people intuitively mean when they talk of biological gender and the like, which make most of the responses against this argument miss the point...
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  In civil society we forgo our intuitions all the time - our moral intuitions are frequently superseded by law, our intuitions about what atoms look like are superseded by a university Physics course, etc. - but your response I see repeatedly, you don't say we should give into intuition, you say that some people would be "ticked off" by being asked to do something against intuition. Part of the movement to get people to use the correct pronouns to refer to someone is really just the movement against the epistemic authority of some forms of intuition. As an aside, in Western society names are generally not independent of physical attributes, and most names are gendered as well. I know very few people with unisex names.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    This shouldn't be downvoted; it's a very good point addressing a basic problem with the "call 'em as I see 'em" side of the argument.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  "What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes." Yes. Exactly. That's what's being asked of them. To follow someone's request out of courtesy. Again: why is this difficult?
anon12345690 7y ago
first, yes you can call her whatever you want. its called freedom. second, yea pronouns are different. they are actual nouns in the language used to describe people by what they are. theyre exactly the opposite of names which are completely random things you can claim third, you know most people use pronouns that match a name and looks? so if you change gender and change your name then people are probably gonna be using the right pronoun anyway

mthoms 7y ago

> it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's beliefs What indication do you have that a majority of the "society" in question (Stack Overflow) has a problem with addressing people in the manner they prefer? In other words, have you considered the possibility that you are the one with an opinion or belief that runs contrary to what this "society" expects of its members? If so, are you expecting to be coddled?

michannne 7y ago
Judging from the overwhelming negative response to what SO did, I'm confident that I am not the one with the controversial beliefs.
- mthoms 7y ago
  You're seeing what you want to see. The controversy has little to do with that. How SO treated the moderator and handled the issue publicly is what's raising flags. You know, it's possible to support the pronoun policy while still being against how the moderator was treated. It seems to be an opportunistic vocal minority that is trying to make this political.
  - michannne 7y ago
    It is already political. I raised this point to another user - changing policies is political. If by, political you mean dealing with government policy, not sure what that has to do with this discussion.
anon12345690 7y ago
the fact that 99.999% of people throughout history have gotten along just fine without worrying about different pronouns that dont match their gender