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He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class siz

by evgen 16y ago

He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class sizes lead to better overall student performance and that smaller classes have a disproportionately large effect when used in disadvantaged/urban schools and when used very early (e.g. K-2nd grade.)

luu 16y ago
It’s not nearly as clear as you make it out to be. Of the randomized controlled trials that I know of [1], one study has shown that reducing class size from 25 to 15 has a large positive effect, but another has shown that reducing class size from 40 to 30 has no effect. Also, assigning a teacher’s aide, so that a class of 50 is taught by two people also has no effect. The problem is that such studies are expensive and hard to generalize. Is it really that going from 25 to 15 always has an effect and that going from 40 to 30 never does, or was there something about the particular circumstances of those trials that made class size matter in one case and not the other? Another problem is that even if reducing class size is effective is that, in the short run, there’s a fixed supply of good teachers. This isn’t a problem when you’re running an RCT on a few schools, but if you want to initiate state-wide (or nation-wide) reform, it’s not clear that throwing a bunch of unqualified teachers into small classrooms will help. [1]Hacsi’s Children as Pawns: The Politics of Educational Reform has a good summary of evidence to date, as of 2003
yummyfajitas 16y ago
If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes by only 3%, which they claim is statistically significant: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/international/events/upload/ProstTeachers.pdf http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/international/events/upload/Prost... But I'm no expert. If you have data, can you cite it? Because a quick google search suggests patrick is right and you are wrong. [1] A few of the studies at the top of google results don't address student performance, but instead focus on student satisfaction.
- evgen 16y ago
  Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"): Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Achievement Gap? Evidence from the Lasting Benefits Study, American Journal of Education 116, November 2009. Peter Muennig and Steven H. Woolf, Health and Economic Benefits of Reducing the Number of Students per Classroom in US Primary Schools, American Journal of Public Health, published online September 27, 2007. Philip Babcock and Julian R. Betts, Reduced-class Distinctions: Effort, Ability and the Education Production Function, NBER Working paper 14777, March 2009. Sarah Theule Lubienski et.al., Achievement Differences and School Type: The Role of School Climate, Teacher Certification, and Instruction, American Journal of Education 115, November 2008. Elizabeth Graue, et.al. The Wisdom of Class-Size Reduction, American Educational Research Journal, September 2007, Vol. 44, No. 3. Douglas D. Ready and Valerie E. Lee, Optimal Context Size in Elementary Schools: Disentangling the Effects of Class Size and School Size, Brookings Papers on Education Policy, 2006/2007, pp. 99-135. Fatih Unlu, California Class Size Reduction Reform: New Findings from the NAEP, Princeton Univ., Nov. 2005 Jeremy D. Finn et.al., Small Classes in the Early Grades, Academic Achievement, and Graduating From High School, Journal of Educational Psychology, 2005. The best that the opponents of initiatives to reduce class sizes can muster are exemplified the recent efforts by anti-tax groups to fight Amendment 9 in Florida (see http://floridataxwatch.org/archive/amendment9.html http://floridataxwatch.org/archive/amendment9.html for an example) where there is a a great deal of political weaseling to try to minimize the available data. No studies are presented that show that reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect and a lot of words are spent trying to spin the results that are available. We are not talking about college-level instruction and you know that. The attempt to claim that research on college pedagogy is in any way applicable to elementary education is poor sophistry at best. To return the favor, how about you start listing some studies that show that reduced class sizes in K-6 have no long-terms effects on student outcome?
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Look, I don't claim to be an expert. I was just asking you to cite some of the voluminous research you claimed existed, and pointing out that the case seems far from clear. I just cited the first two on-point google results, one of which was about grade 1. Also, no one is claiming reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect. The claim is that their effect is small and probably not cost effective. Now, on to your citations. Your first paper (Konstantantopoulos and Chun) agrees with me. It shows an achievement gain is 0.04-0.1 standard deviations, decreasing with time (they don't even bother to look past grade 8). The increase in cost is 66% (reducing class size from 25 to 15). Graduation probabilities are also increased by 3% (for students not receiving a free lunch) to 18% (for students receiving a free lunch), after 4 years of small class size (according to the Finn paper). So far, the only effect that seems significant is the graduation probability for students receiving a free lunch (assuming this particular effect is real, rather than just data mining). (Note: several of your other studies don't even try to address the claim that lower class sizes improve student achievement. Your paper by Woolf and Muennig is just an advocacy piece, assuming that education is the cause of all good things and arguing that we need more of it. )

by evgen 16y ago

luu 16y ago

It’s not nearly as clear as you make it out to be. Of the randomized controlled trials that I know of [1], one study has shown that reducing class size from 25 to 15 has a large positive effect, but another has shown that reducing class size from 40 to 30 has no effect. Also, assigning a teacher’s aide, so that a class of 50 is taught by two people also has no effect. The problem is that such studies are expensive and hard to generalize. Is it really that going from 25 to 15 always has an effect and that going from 40 to 30 never does, or was there something about the particular circumstances of those trials that made class size matter in one case and not the other? Another problem is that even if reducing class size is effective is that, in the short run, there’s a fixed supply of good teachers. This isn’t a problem when you’re running an RCT on a few schools, but if you want to initiate state-wide (or nation-wide) reform, it’s not clear that throwing a bunch of unqualified teachers into small classrooms will help. [1]Hacsi’s Children as Pawns: The Politics of Educational Reform has a good summary of evidence to date, as of 2003

yummyfajitas 16y ago

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes by only 3%, which they claim is statistically significant: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/international/events/upload/ProstTeachers.pdf http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/international/events/upload/Prost... But I'm no expert. If you have data, can you cite it? Because a quick google search suggests patrick is right and you are wrong. [1] A few of the studies at the top of google results don't address student performance, but instead focus on student satisfaction.

evgen 16y ago
Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"): Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Achievement Gap? Evidence from the Lasting Benefits Study, American Journal of Education 116, November 2009. Peter Muennig and Steven H. Woolf, Health and Economic Benefits of Reducing the Number of Students per Classroom in US Primary Schools, American Journal of Public Health, published online September 27, 2007. Philip Babcock and Julian R. Betts, Reduced-class Distinctions: Effort, Ability and the Education Production Function, NBER Working paper 14777, March 2009. Sarah Theule Lubienski et.al., Achievement Differences and School Type: The Role of School Climate, Teacher Certification, and Instruction, American Journal of Education 115, November 2008. Elizabeth Graue, et.al. The Wisdom of Class-Size Reduction, American Educational Research Journal, September 2007, Vol. 44, No. 3. Douglas D. Ready and Valerie E. Lee, Optimal Context Size in Elementary Schools: Disentangling the Effects of Class Size and School Size, Brookings Papers on Education Policy, 2006/2007, pp. 99-135. Fatih Unlu, California Class Size Reduction Reform: New Findings from the NAEP, Princeton Univ., Nov. 2005 Jeremy D. Finn et.al., Small Classes in the Early Grades, Academic Achievement, and Graduating From High School, Journal of Educational Psychology, 2005. The best that the opponents of initiatives to reduce class sizes can muster are exemplified the recent efforts by anti-tax groups to fight Amendment 9 in Florida (see http://floridataxwatch.org/archive/amendment9.html http://floridataxwatch.org/archive/amendment9.html for an example) where there is a a great deal of political weaseling to try to minimize the available data. No studies are presented that show that reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect and a lot of words are spent trying to spin the results that are available. We are not talking about college-level instruction and you know that. The attempt to claim that research on college pedagogy is in any way applicable to elementary education is poor sophistry at best. To return the favor, how about you start listing some studies that show that reduced class sizes in K-6 have no long-terms effects on student outcome?
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Look, I don't claim to be an expert. I was just asking you to cite some of the voluminous research you claimed existed, and pointing out that the case seems far from clear. I just cited the first two on-point google results, one of which was about grade 1. Also, no one is claiming reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect. The claim is that their effect is small and probably not cost effective. Now, on to your citations. Your first paper (Konstantantopoulos and Chun) agrees with me. It shows an achievement gain is 0.04-0.1 standard deviations, decreasing with time (they don't even bother to look past grade 8). The increase in cost is 66% (reducing class size from 25 to 15). Graduation probabilities are also increased by 3% (for students not receiving a free lunch) to 18% (for students receiving a free lunch), after 4 years of small class size (according to the Finn paper). So far, the only effect that seems significant is the graduation probability for students receiving a free lunch (assuming this particular effect is real, rather than just data mining). (Note: several of your other studies don't even try to address the claim that lower class sizes improve student achievement. Your paper by Woolf and Muennig is just an advocacy piece, assuming that education is the cause of all good things and arguing that we need more of it. )