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This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking fro

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a different non-community position before long. It seems like a poor place to have someone who's managed to drive out a significant percentage of the volunteer moderators for the whole network. And my preferred pronoun this week is blergl.

shadowgovt 7y ago
You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?
- throwaway314pi 7y ago
  I’ve never met someone who uses a pronoun other than he, she, or they. Does that mean all other pronouns are “derivation-free nonsense”? My preferred pronoun is blergl.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- xienze 7y ago
  > Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly Isn't that what "gender-fluid" is? > or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them? Isn't that what pronouns like "xir" are all about? You seem more hung up on "have you personally met someone like that?" than "do these people really exist?" The answer to the latter question is yes, they do.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    I felt that the last sentence tag indicated the author was thinking of gender-fluid people as abstractions rather than actual human beings; hence the verify whether they were snarking from experience or just spreading negative stereotypes they have no experience with. I can understand the former; the latter corrodes discourse. And for what it's worth: we're smart people with the ability to attend to the rules of string coercion in JavaScript; we can treat humans as humans and use the words they prefer to use to describe themselves. It's not actually that hard; certainly not as hard as all this cognitive load for JavaScript quirks. ;)
    - fencepost 7y ago
      I felt that the last sentence tag indicated the author was thinking of gender-fluid people as abstractions rather than actual human beings Fluid as in changing frequently? Maybe, I don't personally know anyone who fits that description and frankly I'd probably be unimpressed by someone with gender swinging like a weather vane. Nonbinary? Yes, an immediate family member who is also stable in their identification and in a stable long term relationship. Also some folks I've interacted with in professional settings where it's none of my business how they identify. Also several people from my fairly close circle in college, but it's been long enough since I graduated and everyone scattered that I don't talk much with any of that circle regardless of gender. My snark was directed more at what sounds like a potentially troublesome change that could add a lot of headaches to what I suspect is already an often thankless volunteer position.
- mattigames 7y ago
  Yes, they proudly call themselves gender-fluid and state that they change pronouns frequently. And many state to use non-existing words as pronouns such as xhy, requiring a mental effort to remember a new word they invented and also to remember to whom that word is associated, so the satire of using blerg as pronoun is spot-on while also offensive to some.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    > while also offensive to some You would think that would be a strong indicator to not do that thing in a public forum conversation, but no accounting for taste, I suppose.
  - fencepost 7y ago
    Ahem. "Blergl," not "blerg." I've expressed a preference for a pronoun, please make the effort to address me in the appropriate manner.
- swebs 7y ago
  >Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly Yes, these people often use the label "genderfluid" >or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them? Yes, just go to Twitter, click any trending political hashtag, and read the bios of the people posting there.
- fencepost 7y ago
  I added that bit of snark because a big part of this seems to have been a new (pending) Code of Conduct that apparently could be read as "you're not allowed to use phrasing that would normally be recognized as gender-neutral, you must use individuals' preferred pronouns." I know I'd question that if it meant that (while moderating) I was going to have to go look into what someone's gender pronoun preferences were lest I be accused of violating the CoC. I haven't read the leaked TL (Teachers' Lounge?) chat transcripts and the whole thing has blown up into a massive drama such that reading all the summaries and resignations and objections and whatnot isn't realistic for me, but I suspect that questions along the lines of "Can I just do this?" were interpreted as challenging the whole new CoC and someone felt like they were being disrespected. The (apparent) summary dismissal outside all existing policies for dismissing moderators would fit with it being a knee-jerk reaction followed by a refusal to back down after a mistake. Frankly if Monica C hadn't asked for clarification but had simply continued writing in such a way as to avoid using any pronouns this would never have blown up, but I think the question was taken as questioning authority. Edit: As for the neutral pronoun, yes, more than 20 years ago as part of a community focused around a Usenet group that also had regular social get-togethers all over the country. IIRC, the term(s) in use were zie/zir. Edit2: And having just done a bit of searching: No, it wasn't alt.polyamory or any related groups, though there might have been overlap in memberships.
  - GRMule 7y ago
    I can't find those leaked transcripts anywhere
    - fencepost 7y ago
      IIRC I saw references to them being posted to reddit, but I didn't bother even going to look. I have enough problems keeping up with discussions in communities I'm part of without adding chat logs from a community of technical people in the middle of a controversy.
P_I_Staker 7y ago
This is what really irritates me about moderating in general. The whole thing is an exercise in power tripping. Considering whether a decision was misguided is forbidden. You must always be dictator. Mistakes are never made.
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  Devil's advocate: sports referees never admit a mistake, either. There's a calculus where the upsides of correcting a mistake are outweighed by the downsides of inviting more gamesmanship of your decisions. (I know nothing about the SO situation, purely talking generalities here.)
  - P_I_Staker 7y ago
    I'm not sure about that, of course In a game they don't once the cards fall; but there's video review and officials do admit to mistakes after the fact. It's not quite so bad as the situation with moderators IMO. I don't see the same level of power tripping, but maybe that's because I'm not on the field
- MauranKilom 7y ago
  There is plenty of questioning moderator decisions on the stackoverflow meta, in civil ways where both sides can explain their actions and perspectives. Mistakes are sometimes made and subsequently corrected given the background and opportunity to recognize them.

shadowgovt 7y ago

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

throwaway314pi 7y ago
I’ve never met someone who uses a pronoun other than he, she, or they. Does that mean all other pronouns are “derivation-free nonsense”? My preferred pronoun is blergl.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
xienze 7y ago
> Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly Isn't that what "gender-fluid" is? > or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them? Isn't that what pronouns like "xir" are all about? You seem more hung up on "have you personally met someone like that?" than "do these people really exist?" The answer to the latter question is yes, they do.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  I felt that the last sentence tag indicated the author was thinking of gender-fluid people as abstractions rather than actual human beings; hence the verify whether they were snarking from experience or just spreading negative stereotypes they have no experience with. I can understand the former; the latter corrodes discourse. And for what it's worth: we're smart people with the ability to attend to the rules of string coercion in JavaScript; we can treat humans as humans and use the words they prefer to use to describe themselves. It's not actually that hard; certainly not as hard as all this cognitive load for JavaScript quirks. ;)
  - fencepost 7y ago
    I felt that the last sentence tag indicated the author was thinking of gender-fluid people as abstractions rather than actual human beings Fluid as in changing frequently? Maybe, I don't personally know anyone who fits that description and frankly I'd probably be unimpressed by someone with gender swinging like a weather vane. Nonbinary? Yes, an immediate family member who is also stable in their identification and in a stable long term relationship. Also some folks I've interacted with in professional settings where it's none of my business how they identify. Also several people from my fairly close circle in college, but it's been long enough since I graduated and everyone scattered that I don't talk much with any of that circle regardless of gender. My snark was directed more at what sounds like a potentially troublesome change that could add a lot of headaches to what I suspect is already an often thankless volunteer position.
mattigames 7y ago
Yes, they proudly call themselves gender-fluid and state that they change pronouns frequently. And many state to use non-existing words as pronouns such as xhy, requiring a mental effort to remember a new word they invented and also to remember to whom that word is associated, so the satire of using blerg as pronoun is spot-on while also offensive to some.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > while also offensive to some You would think that would be a strong indicator to not do that thing in a public forum conversation, but no accounting for taste, I suppose.
- fencepost 7y ago
  Ahem. "Blergl," not "blerg." I've expressed a preference for a pronoun, please make the effort to address me in the appropriate manner.
swebs 7y ago
>Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly Yes, these people often use the label "genderfluid" >or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them? Yes, just go to Twitter, click any trending political hashtag, and read the bios of the people posting there.
fencepost 7y ago
I added that bit of snark because a big part of this seems to have been a new (pending) Code of Conduct that apparently could be read as "you're not allowed to use phrasing that would normally be recognized as gender-neutral, you must use individuals' preferred pronouns." I know I'd question that if it meant that (while moderating) I was going to have to go look into what someone's gender pronoun preferences were lest I be accused of violating the CoC. I haven't read the leaked TL (Teachers' Lounge?) chat transcripts and the whole thing has blown up into a massive drama such that reading all the summaries and resignations and objections and whatnot isn't realistic for me, but I suspect that questions along the lines of "Can I just do this?" were interpreted as challenging the whole new CoC and someone felt like they were being disrespected. The (apparent) summary dismissal outside all existing policies for dismissing moderators would fit with it being a knee-jerk reaction followed by a refusal to back down after a mistake. Frankly if Monica C hadn't asked for clarification but had simply continued writing in such a way as to avoid using any pronouns this would never have blown up, but I think the question was taken as questioning authority. Edit: As for the neutral pronoun, yes, more than 20 years ago as part of a community focused around a Usenet group that also had regular social get-togethers all over the country. IIRC, the term(s) in use were zie/zir. Edit2: And having just done a bit of searching: No, it wasn't alt.polyamory or any related groups, though there might have been overlap in memberships.
- GRMule 7y ago
  I can't find those leaked transcripts anywhere
  - fencepost 7y ago
    IIRC I saw references to them being posted to reddit, but I didn't bother even going to look. I have enough problems keeping up with discussions in communities I'm part of without adding chat logs from a community of technical people in the middle of a controversy.

P_I_Staker 7y ago

This is what really irritates me about moderating in general. The whole thing is an exercise in power tripping. Considering whether a decision was misguided is forbidden. You must always be dictator. Mistakes are never made.

yourbandsucks 7y ago
Devil's advocate: sports referees never admit a mistake, either. There's a calculus where the upsides of correcting a mistake are outweighed by the downsides of inviting more gamesmanship of your decisions. (I know nothing about the SO situation, purely talking generalities here.)
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  I'm not sure about that, of course In a game they don't once the cards fall; but there's video review and officials do admit to mistakes after the fact. It's not quite so bad as the situation with moderators IMO. I don't see the same level of power tripping, but maybe that's because I'm not on the field
MauranKilom 7y ago
There is plenty of questioning moderator decisions on the stackoverflow meta, in civil ways where both sides can explain their actions and perspectives. Mistakes are sometimes made and subsequently corrected given the background and opportunity to recognize them.