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“It’s advisable that you don’t install apps from non-trustworthy sources, ” Unpopular opinion but this is why I prefer walled garden apple for my family then a

“It’s advisable that you don’t install apps from non-trustworthy sources, ” Unpopular opinion but this is why I prefer walled garden apple for my family then alternative.

StavrosK 7y ago
I don't understand people who want to remove choice. Don't want the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? Don't enable the option that gives you that ability.
- dodobirdlord 7y ago
  The position is self-defeating. How can you hold it and at the same time advocate against their choice to use a system that doesn't have the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? The availability of such systems is obviously an increase in available choice, not a decrease.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, haven't you just rephrased Karl Popper's "paradox of tolerance?" Advocating freedom to create walled gardens in mainstream computing is what's self-defeating.
    - dodobirdlord 7y ago
      I disagree. The existence of a walled garden to opt into is a meaningful choice. As long as other choices exist, the existence of a walled garden limits nobodies choice. Based on some other comments in the thread I'll add that it would be even better from a choice perspective if Apple offered two configurations of iPhone, one where sideloading was available via a software toggle and one with hardware that cannot run unsigned code. Ultimately though, an approximation of this choice is available by substituting some Android device for the first option.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    > How can you hold it and at the same time advocate against their choice to use a system that doesn't have the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? The availability of such systems is obviously an increase in available choice, not a decrease. Saying "doesn't have the ability to install apps from other sources" is the same as saying "doesn't give you the choice to install apps from other sources" -- it's removing a choice. If you don't want to install apps that aren't approved by Apple then... don't. You could choose not to even if your ability to choose was not restricted.
    - askafriend 7y ago
      > it's removing a choice. Not from the marketplace. If you care about this so much, you can go over to Android. I personally like the way Apple handles their platform with an iron grip and is part of the reason I buy their products.
      - detaro 7y ago
        Yes, it does remove a choice, because choice in the market is not along just one axis.
        askafriend 7y ago
        I want to buy into a platform that is controlled tightly by a single entity that I trust to deliver a good user experience reliably; in this case, that's Apple. I consider the tight control a feature and I'm glad this philosophy of computing is available in the marketplace. I think people underestimate this view.
        detaro 7y ago
        I don't think it's an underestimated view, it's quite common. I just don't think it would be compromised very much if there was an optional escape hatch. Buying a hypothetical Apple device and never flicking on the sideloading switch would still give you that. Whereas the person who generally prefers the security engineering, design choices and/or integration of iOS but wants some exceptions is now told "If you care about this so much, you can go over to Android.".
- jackcodes 7y ago
  He did say ‘for his family’. I don’t expect older people and children to not enable that option if convinced by an advert to the lure of free pirated apps.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    That's what parental controls are for. You can disable app installation completely if necessary.
detaro 7y ago
The actual bug talks about "untrusted app code execution". As in, code in any app, regardless of where it was installed from. So you're relying on review by the walled garden as protection. And of course, "untrusted sources" is not the same as "all side-loading". I use sources to sideload from that I trust more than the average app developer.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Would you have trusted Epic? https://www.pcmag.com/news/363357/google-irks-epic-games-by-revealing-fortnite-android-flaw https://www.pcmag.com/news/363357/google-irks-epic-games-by-...
  - detaro 7y ago
    Good question, not sure. Haven't actually needed an install channel that wasn't through F-Droid (since it supports custom repositories), and would generally be wary of new ones.
coretx 7y ago
In case of 0-days, the Google play store is a non-trustworthy source.
chapium 7y ago
Apple can have their walled garden of scrutinized apps. Why not allow other gardens? How about my own garden? Why not theo's garden?
ars 7y ago
> is why I prefer walled garden apple for my family You can install family link, which blocks that option. It's a good option for parents to keep tabs on their kids - it shows you location, and which apps are installed.
tenebrisalietum 7y ago
It's been a awhile since I had an Android phone but don't you have to jump through some hoops to install arbitrary .apk's from the Internet, plus understand what downloading and executing a file is (something non-technical people sometimes struggle with). It's possible on Android but not typically out of the box.

“It’s advisable that you don’t install apps from non-trustworthy sources, ” Unpopular opinion but this is why I prefer walled garden apple for my family then alternative.

StavrosK 7y ago

I don't understand people who want to remove choice. Don't want the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? Don't enable the option that gives you that ability.

dodobirdlord 7y ago
The position is self-defeating. How can you hold it and at the same time advocate against their choice to use a system that doesn't have the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? The availability of such systems is obviously an increase in available choice, not a decrease.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, haven't you just rephrased Karl Popper's "paradox of tolerance?" Advocating freedom to create walled gardens in mainstream computing is what's self-defeating.
  - dodobirdlord 7y ago
    I disagree. The existence of a walled garden to opt into is a meaningful choice. As long as other choices exist, the existence of a walled garden limits nobodies choice. Based on some other comments in the thread I'll add that it would be even better from a choice perspective if Apple offered two configurations of iPhone, one where sideloading was available via a software toggle and one with hardware that cannot run unsigned code. Ultimately though, an approximation of this choice is available by substituting some Android device for the first option.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  > How can you hold it and at the same time advocate against their choice to use a system that doesn't have the ability to install apps from untrustworthy sources? The availability of such systems is obviously an increase in available choice, not a decrease. Saying "doesn't have the ability to install apps from other sources" is the same as saying "doesn't give you the choice to install apps from other sources" -- it's removing a choice. If you don't want to install apps that aren't approved by Apple then... don't. You could choose not to even if your ability to choose was not restricted.
  - askafriend 7y ago
    > it's removing a choice. Not from the marketplace. If you care about this so much, you can go over to Android. I personally like the way Apple handles their platform with an iron grip and is part of the reason I buy their products.
    - detaro 7y ago
      Yes, it does remove a choice, because choice in the market is not along just one axis.
      - askafriend 7y ago
        I want to buy into a platform that is controlled tightly by a single entity that I trust to deliver a good user experience reliably; in this case, that's Apple. I consider the tight control a feature and I'm glad this philosophy of computing is available in the marketplace. I think people underestimate this view.
        detaro 7y ago
        I don't think it's an underestimated view, it's quite common. I just don't think it would be compromised very much if there was an optional escape hatch. Buying a hypothetical Apple device and never flicking on the sideloading switch would still give you that. Whereas the person who generally prefers the security engineering, design choices and/or integration of iOS but wants some exceptions is now told "If you care about this so much, you can go over to Android.".
jackcodes 7y ago
He did say ‘for his family’. I don’t expect older people and children to not enable that option if convinced by an advert to the lure of free pirated apps.
- viraptor 7y ago
  That's what parental controls are for. You can disable app installation completely if necessary.

detaro 7y ago

The actual bug talks about "untrusted app code execution". As in, code in any app, regardless of where it was installed from. So you're relying on review by the walled garden as protection. And of course, "untrusted sources" is not the same as "all side-loading". I use sources to sideload from that I trust more than the average app developer.

scarface74 7y ago
Would you have trusted Epic? https://www.pcmag.com/news/363357/google-irks-epic-games-by-revealing-fortnite-android-flaw https://www.pcmag.com/news/363357/google-irks-epic-games-by-...
- detaro 7y ago
  Good question, not sure. Haven't actually needed an install channel that wasn't through F-Droid (since it supports custom repositories), and would generally be wary of new ones.

coretx 7y ago

In case of 0-days, the Google play store is a non-trustworthy source.

chapium 7y ago

Apple can have their walled garden of scrutinized apps. Why not allow other gardens? How about my own garden? Why not theo's garden?

ars 7y ago

> is why I prefer walled garden apple for my family You can install family link, which blocks that option. It's a good option for parents to keep tabs on their kids - it shows you location, and which apps are installed.

tenebrisalietum 7y ago

It's been a awhile since I had an Android phone but don't you have to jump through some hoops to install arbitrary .apk's from the Internet, plus understand what downloading and executing a file is (something non-technical people sometimes struggle with). It's possible on Android but not typically out of the box.