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Eh, in some instances you can define extremeness relative to alternatives, not number of believers. Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regard

Eh, in some instances you can define extremeness relative to alternatives, not number of believers. Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. I would argue that generally a position being extreme results in fewer believers, not that fewer believers results in a position being extreme.

mosselman 7y ago
> Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. Not if you are talking about fining or destroying sentient robots. The sentient robot probably has a pretty good back-up system of his mind, so he can just respawn in a different body, his bank account, though, is singular and coupled to the identity that its brain can prove to be. So executing such a robot is not very extreme, it is at most an inconvenience. Taking his money though, is something that has a more lasting impact. At least this is what I made up. The point I am making is that what is 'extreme' is dependent on context and there is no such thing as intrinsic extremeness.
- codezero 7y ago
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Faark 7y ago
Reminds me of a concept called Overton window [0]. Just want to mention this describes how people behave, as in a human weakness. Not how people should behave to form optimal opinions / societies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
K0SM0S 7y ago
Agreed. This is how we use the term in political science anyway. Even if an "extreme" opinion becomes majoritary, it remains just as extreme on a supposed "spectrum" of possibles. "More" than "extreme" usually takes you off-spectrum, e.g. anarchy (which is often considered beyond extreme right, at least in Europe) or "hive mind" would fit beyond extreme left ideas of collectivism (a sci-fi concept of unified minds and thinking, like colonies of ants but next level. lol.) Both are off the political spectrum though, can't describe them using the same elements. Reality is obviously much more "blurry". Most political experts would argue (rightfully so, imho) that most "extreme" views are in fact not "left" or "right" of moderate ones; they sit in a different "plane" so to speak, a third space distinct from left/right (you'd indeed find a lot of right-ish and left-ish ideas mixed in with most "extreme" ideologies; you also find lots of moderate and extreme views in otherwise 'normal' (statistically) parties). Left/right itself, or moderate/extreme, are also pretty poor and unsubstantial ways to define any idea or anyone, it's a poor man's shortcut to summarize a context, not ideas themselves. Most people today would sit far left of anyone in past history, for instance, while being much more individualistic at the same time. Reality is complex. The media don't like complex (is media plural? shall I call it something else in pronoun?). Hence, theatric storytelling of the left versus the right, and/or moderates vs. extremes, iced with a general misunderstanding of statistics. I will now refrain from making any conclusion.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > e.g. anarchy (which is often considered beyond extreme right, at least in Europe) Anarchists are leftists, Ancaps are on the right.
SamReidHughes 7y ago
Execution is a good example — there are far more extreme punishments: torture in various forms, punishment of relatives, etc. A fine is an extreme punishment for crimes like rape, while execution is not. (See the reaction to the Brock Turner sentencing.)
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Eh, in some instances you can define extremeness relative to alternatives, not number of believers. Relative extremeness, sure, but that makes something more or less extreme, not “extreme” without a comparative. > Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. But execution for most serious crimes was for a very long time a standard position, not an extreme one, while not executing people was an extreme position (though it's now pretty standard in most of the world, with broad—or indeed any—use of execution being an extreme position.) > I would argue that generally a position being extreme results in fewer believers, not that fewer believers results in a position being extreme. If you would argue that, go ahead, but you've provided neither evidence nor much argumentation, just conflation of absolute and relative uses of “extreme”, and your example of capital punishment seems to disprove your thesis.

mosselman 7y ago

> Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. Not if you are talking about fining or destroying sentient robots. The sentient robot probably has a pretty good back-up system of his mind, so he can just respawn in a different body, his bank account, though, is singular and coupled to the identity that its brain can prove to be. So executing such a robot is not very extreme, it is at most an inconvenience. Taking his money though, is something that has a more lasting impact. At least this is what I made up. The point I am making is that what is 'extreme' is dependent on context and there is no such thing as intrinsic extremeness.

codezero 7y ago
01010111 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100100 01101111 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110011 01110100 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01100001 01100011 01101011 01110101 01110000 01110011 00101110

Faark 7y ago

Reminds me of a concept called Overton window [0]. Just want to mention this describes how people behave, as in a human weakness. Not how people should behave to form optimal opinions / societies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

K0SM0S 7y ago

Agreed. This is how we use the term in political science anyway. Even if an "extreme" opinion becomes majoritary, it remains just as extreme on a supposed "spectrum" of possibles. "More" than "extreme" usually takes you off-spectrum, e.g. anarchy (which is often considered beyond extreme right, at least in Europe) or "hive mind" would fit beyond extreme left ideas of collectivism (a sci-fi concept of unified minds and thinking, like colonies of ants but next level. lol.) Both are off the political spectrum though, can't describe them using the same elements. Reality is obviously much more "blurry". Most political experts would argue (rightfully so, imho) that most "extreme" views are in fact not "left" or "right" of moderate ones; they sit in a different "plane" so to speak, a third space distinct from left/right (you'd indeed find a lot of right-ish and left-ish ideas mixed in with most "extreme" ideologies; you also find lots of moderate and extreme views in otherwise 'normal' (statistically) parties). Left/right itself, or moderate/extreme, are also pretty poor and unsubstantial ways to define any idea or anyone, it's a poor man's shortcut to summarize a context, not ideas themselves. Most people today would sit far left of anyone in past history, for instance, while being much more individualistic at the same time. Reality is complex. The media don't like complex (is media plural? shall I call it something else in pronoun?). Hence, theatric storytelling of the left versus the right, and/or moderates vs. extremes, iced with a general misunderstanding of statistics. I will now refrain from making any conclusion.

anoncake 7y ago
> e.g. anarchy (which is often considered beyond extreme right, at least in Europe) Anarchists are leftists, Ancaps are on the right.

SamReidHughes 7y ago

Execution is a good example — there are far more extreme punishments: torture in various forms, punishment of relatives, etc. A fine is an extreme punishment for crimes like rape, while execution is not. (See the reaction to the Brock Turner sentencing.)

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Eh, in some instances you can define extremeness relative to alternatives, not number of believers. Relative extremeness, sure, but that makes something more or less extreme, not “extreme” without a comparative. > Execution as a punishment is more extreme than a fine regardless of how many people favor execution over fines. But execution for most serious crimes was for a very long time a standard position, not an extreme one, while not executing people was an extreme position (though it's now pretty standard in most of the world, with broad—or indeed any—use of execution being an extreme position.) > I would argue that generally a position being extreme results in fewer believers, not that fewer believers results in a position being extreme. If you would argue that, go ahead, but you've provided neither evidence nor much argumentation, just conflation of absolute and relative uses of “extreme”, and your example of capital punishment seems to disprove your thesis.