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> Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement for a model 3 competitor. Are you saying a 300lb engine can't compete with a Model 3 in terms of driving perf

> Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement for a model 3 competitor. Are you saying a 300lb engine can't compete with a Model 3 in terms of driving performance? Here's a 5+ year old engine that weighs 290 pounds, makes just under 300 hp and lb-ft of torque in a stock vehicle. https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 With a mild tune (software upgrade, about $1000) you can turn a Golf R into a 11 second 1/4 mile car (you can do the same with a GTI, but it's a lot more work because it's FWD). It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-model-s-race-car-th-1827321127 https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-mod... Anyway, back to my original point - OP made a comment that seemed to me like the weight of gasoline engines was really important in comparing efficiencies - it's not. Right now gasoline vehicles are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. I look forward to the day electric vehicles have improved enough that they are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. But right now battery storage density is a real limiting factor in making that a reality, and the weight of the gasoline engine is nothing more than a second order effect. If you feel I am wrong, please provide numbers/calculations in your rebuttal - it will make for a much more data-driven discussion.

iknowstuff 7y ago
> It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. Wow dude you're the king of misinformation. Why not link to a 2019 article reviewing Tesla Model 3's Track mode? https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod... The Model 3 has a dramatically different thermal management architecture and does not overheat like the Model S did.
- Judgmentality 7y ago
  Your article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet (your article is also from 2018) and strikes me as a bit of a PR piece. It does mention an impressive lap time scored by the Tesla - which is great - but I don't see anything that says the Tesla can drive multiple laps in a row without overheating. So far nobody has posted an impressive time for any Tesla on the Nurburgring - the track considered the gold standard for performance lap times for decades - and that seems to be because nobody can make it a single lap without the car overheating. I am aware that in the past month Tesla has been making a significant effort to post a good time, and they still haven't done so even with a custom vehicle. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-lap-record-attempt-testing-reports/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-... If you can show me a video or article of a Tesla racing 10+ laps in a row at any track without issue, or even doing 2+ fast laps in a row of the Nurburgring let me know. I just googled and couldn't find anything, other than anecdata of Teslas overheating and going into limp mode.
  - davidgould 7y ago
    > article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet Since that article is about "track mode", you should be aware that is has been shipping to the public since late 2018.
Retric 7y ago
Your suggestion would be a horrific fit for a mainstream car in the model 3’s category. Fuel economy, emissions, and long term reliability are why they don’t put an engine like that in a Honda Accord. In terms of real world preference, EV’s and plug in hybrids low speed handling characteristics are vastly more useful than top speed. So the 200hp Honda Engine is arguably undersized even in a lighter car.
- SECProto 7y ago
  Yup. I drive a lot and don't care much about performance as long as I can get up to highway speed on the on-ramp. Fuel economy, maintenance, longevity all matter a great deal.
- Judgmentality 7y ago
  A Tesla Model 3 usually sells for something like $50,000, I'd guess - it's not competing with a Honda Accord. This article is a year old so it's outdated, but it suggests an average sale price of $60,000 for the Model 3. This clearly puts it in the luxury/performance price bracket. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-s... Apart from that, the EA888 engine I mentioned is used in the VW Golf, the 7th best selling car in the world. https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2018-full-year-international-global-top-selling-car-models/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2018-full-year-inte... The engine is considered highly fuel efficient, rated well above 30mpg for most variants and many people report >40mpg in real world usage (obviously this data will be biased towards higher numbers). The emissions, however, are supposedly great but I don't trust VW at all on this front so I'll just assume they're doing something shady. They are being legally sold in California though, which is really the highest emissions bar there is, so I'm not sure what you'd expect from them (again, assuming they aren't doing shady shit). And unusually for VW, this is considered a reliable engine. It's been around and iterated upon for much longer than any Tesla. There is no apples-to-apples comparison between electric and gasoline vehicles, but claiming one of the most highly awarded engines in recent history is lacking in performance is like claiming Teslas are worthless in cold climates - it's more rumor than fact.

iknowstuff 7y ago

> It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. Wow dude you're the king of misinformation. Why not link to a 2019 article reviewing Tesla Model 3's Track mode? https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod... The Model 3 has a dramatically different thermal management architecture and does not overheat like the Model S did.

Judgmentality 7y ago
Your article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet (your article is also from 2018) and strikes me as a bit of a PR piece. It does mention an impressive lap time scored by the Tesla - which is great - but I don't see anything that says the Tesla can drive multiple laps in a row without overheating. So far nobody has posted an impressive time for any Tesla on the Nurburgring - the track considered the gold standard for performance lap times for decades - and that seems to be because nobody can make it a single lap without the car overheating. I am aware that in the past month Tesla has been making a significant effort to post a good time, and they still haven't done so even with a custom vehicle. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-lap-record-attempt-testing-reports/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-... If you can show me a video or article of a Tesla racing 10+ laps in a row at any track without issue, or even doing 2+ fast laps in a row of the Nurburgring let me know. I just googled and couldn't find anything, other than anecdata of Teslas overheating and going into limp mode.
- davidgould 7y ago
  > article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet Since that article is about "track mode", you should be aware that is has been shipping to the public since late 2018.

Retric 7y ago

Your suggestion would be a horrific fit for a mainstream car in the model 3’s category. Fuel economy, emissions, and long term reliability are why they don’t put an engine like that in a Honda Accord. In terms of real world preference, EV’s and plug in hybrids low speed handling characteristics are vastly more useful than top speed. So the 200hp Honda Engine is arguably undersized even in a lighter car.

SECProto 7y ago
Yup. I drive a lot and don't care much about performance as long as I can get up to highway speed on the on-ramp. Fuel economy, maintenance, longevity all matter a great deal.
Judgmentality 7y ago
A Tesla Model 3 usually sells for something like $50,000, I'd guess - it's not competing with a Honda Accord. This article is a year old so it's outdated, but it suggests an average sale price of $60,000 for the Model 3. This clearly puts it in the luxury/performance price bracket. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23/tesla-model-3-average-s... Apart from that, the EA888 engine I mentioned is used in the VW Golf, the 7th best selling car in the world. https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2018-full-year-international-global-top-selling-car-models/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2018-full-year-inte... The engine is considered highly fuel efficient, rated well above 30mpg for most variants and many people report >40mpg in real world usage (obviously this data will be biased towards higher numbers). The emissions, however, are supposedly great but I don't trust VW at all on this front so I'll just assume they're doing something shady. They are being legally sold in California though, which is really the highest emissions bar there is, so I'm not sure what you'd expect from them (again, assuming they aren't doing shady shit). And unusually for VW, this is considered a reliable engine. It's been around and iterated upon for much longer than any Tesla. There is no apples-to-apples comparison between electric and gasoline vehicles, but claiming one of the most highly awarded engines in recent history is lacking in performance is like claiming Teslas are worthless in cold climates - it's more rumor than fact.