4 ms·

I'll say I do detest those with MBAs, mostly due to my bias since I didn't go to college. But even I'm going to say you're making a rather absurd statement tha

I'll say I do detest those with MBAs, mostly due to my bias since I didn't go to college. But even I'm going to say you're making a rather absurd statement that's filled with delusional correlation. MBA programs aren't the "cause" of US Industry decline. I don't even know where to begin with unpacking that they are the cause, because of the absurdity. MBA like programs (specialized business teachings to an advance level) have existed since the days of enterprise. The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. Don't forget too it's the consumer's dollar that ultimately has the "real vote" in where production happens. That's why the past two decades, small farms are more and more... viable is a strong word. But they're more popular and there are plenty that do well. Because certain consumers do vote "Yes, I think that a heritage chicken that's cage free and free range is worth the extra money compared to the commercial broiler breeds." But it's a real difficult sell on someone to tell them, "Hey, you can go into an industry where there's money being thrown around or you can try raising a dying industry from scratch and hope it works out for you before the end of your lifetime." It's the same reason we tell kids you should go into STEM classes and not basket weaving. If consumers already have a history in paying for something, why should someone go into something where there's a history of consumers NOT paying for something?

pbourke 7y ago
> The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. The gospel of MBA programs changed to include financialization and outsourcing as two principal techniques that can be applied to every company and industry (they’re all the same, right?). This probably began in the early 80’s when the MBA began to gain currency as a respected degree. Furthermore there is a hostility between management and labor In the US that does not exist in other advanced manufacturing nations such as Germany and Japan. Blame can be placed on both sides for this situation, but nevertheless the MBA worldview is one that above all treats labor and human capital as a commodity to be managed like any other.
- corodra 7y ago
  "I am hiring you because your single function in the company is to increase profits." "Well, some low lying fruit methods that have proven track record is financial market usage and outsourcing." "Do it." Works. A lot. Few years later. "We need more people that play the financial market and know how to properly outsource." MBA programs: "We'll teach more people to do so." Kind of just basic cause/effect rinse/repeat ambulance chasing. If using chicken bones to run a company actually works, you'd see an increase in hiring old gypsy women and fortune telling would become part of all MBA programs everywhere. I just don't see what everyone is getting at. "Go do learn things that will give you good job prospects and is something you like." "Well, an MBA has good job prospects and I like the business world." "You're a god damn piece of shit. I meant to do those things as long as I agree with them." I mean, come on. Are you really going to blame people that find an opportunity where they're good at something and gives them a better life? Basic damn human nature for anyone with a shred of ambition. Plus there are many flavors of MBA teachings. Each university has their own MBA style. There's no "One MBA doctrine". Same like each Ivy League has a different law approach as well. They all don't believe that outsourcing and financial gaming is the single solution to higher profits. As a group becomes reliant on a method, that makes them weak in others and allows for extra opportunity for exploitation due to a willingness to be blinded by comfort. To be fair, a lot of MBA programs do relate Sun Tzu teachings to business for real good reason. Adaptability is the first principle to success. Not just end methodologies. And remember, I fucking don't like MBAs to begin with. And you're forcing me to defend them, you ass. And Japan is literally the worst example you could provide for 1st world countries labor/management relations. Lookup Karoshi.
wbl 7y ago
Instead of teaching a psrson who knows autos what a balance sheet looks like we take people who know all about balance sheets and pretend they can run making of anything.
- corodra 7y ago
  You kind of described the entire education system that generation-y was raised with. They think an "education" is enough to make you an expert in all things without needing experience. Hell, you get that here in HN. While being smart in programming or IT infrastructure is a feat, that doesn't mean you instantly/magically understand dick all in infrastructure, geopolitics, transportation logistics and so on. I really picked up on that a year or two ago when an article talking about why there aren't that many women in the trucking industry because "it's such a great job". Everyone was "Yea, trucking sounds great. We need to increase women in it, blah blah". I did OTR trucking (over the road, meaning you do the long distance truck driving). It's a terrible, low paying job, low respect, zero life fulfillment job. You are only home 3-4 days every MONTH. You don't go home everyday. You live in that truck and it's not fun. I went from a relatively healthy and active person to gaining 25 pounds and I have chronic back problems after 7 months of doing it. It's been 8 years now. Still have those back problems. And I'm a lucky one. There are many other people who got it worse. There's a good reason why you won't be seeing a shirtless trucker calendar. But holy shit, lots of silicon valley folks tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Even though I actually did the job. One idiot who never did the job either writes an article and is suddenly an expert because they interviewed one person who "tried" to get a job as a truck driver... New York Times is an accurate and reliable news source... sure. Why are you lot making me defend MBAs? It's pissing me off. The problems y'all are describing are not just "this one group is the cause of all our problems. We need to blame them and them alone instead of looking in a mirror and figuring out if I, myself, can improve myself and my situation." It's like with the bankers... which... fucking hell... I'm about to defend them... if people knew how to actually save and capitalize on money and that shit was taught properly in this country, there wouldn't have been fertile soil for all those financial instruments and shitty lending standards that crashed the market. Same goes with Apple. Can't blame them for making over priced, anti-consumer products. People buy it. It's their fault because there are options that people don't buy. They buy the overpriced trash and pay an arm and a leg for bs repair work. If I was in Apple's position, I'd crank that practice up to 11, all day long... damn it, I just defended Apple too... I need a drink.
friendlybus 7y ago
A lot of the people that go into the desert of the unknown and come back with a functioning business are those that you told to do something conventional in the first place and they found their own path as a contradiction to the old guard's values. So I agree you don't need to tell people to do things other than the safe bets, for many reasons.
- corodra 7y ago
  I agree. There's nothing wrong with people who do the unconventional and against "conventional wisdom" and "strike gold". At the same time, don't beat and blame people who do the conventional wisdom and succeed. That's the part that pisses me off. Generally, people don't want to be "poor". Then one wisdom goes, shoot for the stars thus even if you miss, you still reach the moon. Alright, business or banking. Lots of money in both. The hedge their risk by getting degrees and an MBA, etc. And do well. People, even though they hate said field, still throw money at them. That person just shrugs and moves on with doing it, because why not? The only difference is, they got a finance degree instead of an engineering or art degree. Can't blame their choices if they have the mental fortitude to deal with that shit. They made the best decision within their life goals. You don't take a degree with the mentality of "I want to spend money to make my life worse." If you have that outlook, better off on buying heroin.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    I think you can make the argument of MBA hate/dislike (not that I want to) from the perspective that in the late 80s a lot of previously engineer/artist-led fields went to studio & management lead. Hollywood had the United Artists Heaven's Gate flop and then moved into studio model. Engineering & business succumbed to the hostile takeover 80's guy shark. There's a well earned perspective that some management is incompetent or cheats with financial or social connections to get their job. I think management competence is a very important role, and quite often an understated performance that doesn't require the glitz and glamour it can have. The largest wage classes tend to be management now. The heroically competent worker does not get rewarded relative to others in the org like he used to, unless you specialise massively and have a reputation to boot. I don't think you can measure mental fortitude like that, but I haven't taken those jobs to compare. Some people are scared of money or behave irrationally with money. I've been to a few therapists that have high powered husbands or clients that illustrate just how irrational they can be. I can see the evidence for the spirit of malcontent with management but I would agree it's not something that can be half-heartedly expressed through a what is basically a meme. It needs to be articulated accurately if it is to improve.

pbourke 7y ago

> The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. The gospel of MBA programs changed to include financialization and outsourcing as two principal techniques that can be applied to every company and industry (they’re all the same, right?). This probably began in the early 80’s when the MBA began to gain currency as a respected degree. Furthermore there is a hostility between management and labor In the US that does not exist in other advanced manufacturing nations such as Germany and Japan. Blame can be placed on both sides for this situation, but nevertheless the MBA worldview is one that above all treats labor and human capital as a commodity to be managed like any other.

corodra 7y ago
"I am hiring you because your single function in the company is to increase profits." "Well, some low lying fruit methods that have proven track record is financial market usage and outsourcing." "Do it." Works. A lot. Few years later. "We need more people that play the financial market and know how to properly outsource." MBA programs: "We'll teach more people to do so." Kind of just basic cause/effect rinse/repeat ambulance chasing. If using chicken bones to run a company actually works, you'd see an increase in hiring old gypsy women and fortune telling would become part of all MBA programs everywhere. I just don't see what everyone is getting at. "Go do learn things that will give you good job prospects and is something you like." "Well, an MBA has good job prospects and I like the business world." "You're a god damn piece of shit. I meant to do those things as long as I agree with them." I mean, come on. Are you really going to blame people that find an opportunity where they're good at something and gives them a better life? Basic damn human nature for anyone with a shred of ambition. Plus there are many flavors of MBA teachings. Each university has their own MBA style. There's no "One MBA doctrine". Same like each Ivy League has a different law approach as well. They all don't believe that outsourcing and financial gaming is the single solution to higher profits. As a group becomes reliant on a method, that makes them weak in others and allows for extra opportunity for exploitation due to a willingness to be blinded by comfort. To be fair, a lot of MBA programs do relate Sun Tzu teachings to business for real good reason. Adaptability is the first principle to success. Not just end methodologies. And remember, I fucking don't like MBAs to begin with. And you're forcing me to defend them, you ass. And Japan is literally the worst example you could provide for 1st world countries labor/management relations. Lookup Karoshi.

wbl 7y ago

Instead of teaching a psrson who knows autos what a balance sheet looks like we take people who know all about balance sheets and pretend they can run making of anything.

corodra 7y ago
You kind of described the entire education system that generation-y was raised with. They think an "education" is enough to make you an expert in all things without needing experience. Hell, you get that here in HN. While being smart in programming or IT infrastructure is a feat, that doesn't mean you instantly/magically understand dick all in infrastructure, geopolitics, transportation logistics and so on. I really picked up on that a year or two ago when an article talking about why there aren't that many women in the trucking industry because "it's such a great job". Everyone was "Yea, trucking sounds great. We need to increase women in it, blah blah". I did OTR trucking (over the road, meaning you do the long distance truck driving). It's a terrible, low paying job, low respect, zero life fulfillment job. You are only home 3-4 days every MONTH. You don't go home everyday. You live in that truck and it's not fun. I went from a relatively healthy and active person to gaining 25 pounds and I have chronic back problems after 7 months of doing it. It's been 8 years now. Still have those back problems. And I'm a lucky one. There are many other people who got it worse. There's a good reason why you won't be seeing a shirtless trucker calendar. But holy shit, lots of silicon valley folks tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Even though I actually did the job. One idiot who never did the job either writes an article and is suddenly an expert because they interviewed one person who "tried" to get a job as a truck driver... New York Times is an accurate and reliable news source... sure. Why are you lot making me defend MBAs? It's pissing me off. The problems y'all are describing are not just "this one group is the cause of all our problems. We need to blame them and them alone instead of looking in a mirror and figuring out if I, myself, can improve myself and my situation." It's like with the bankers... which... fucking hell... I'm about to defend them... if people knew how to actually save and capitalize on money and that shit was taught properly in this country, there wouldn't have been fertile soil for all those financial instruments and shitty lending standards that crashed the market. Same goes with Apple. Can't blame them for making over priced, anti-consumer products. People buy it. It's their fault because there are options that people don't buy. They buy the overpriced trash and pay an arm and a leg for bs repair work. If I was in Apple's position, I'd crank that practice up to 11, all day long... damn it, I just defended Apple too... I need a drink.

friendlybus 7y ago

A lot of the people that go into the desert of the unknown and come back with a functioning business are those that you told to do something conventional in the first place and they found their own path as a contradiction to the old guard's values. So I agree you don't need to tell people to do things other than the safe bets, for many reasons.

corodra 7y ago
I agree. There's nothing wrong with people who do the unconventional and against "conventional wisdom" and "strike gold". At the same time, don't beat and blame people who do the conventional wisdom and succeed. That's the part that pisses me off. Generally, people don't want to be "poor". Then one wisdom goes, shoot for the stars thus even if you miss, you still reach the moon. Alright, business or banking. Lots of money in both. The hedge their risk by getting degrees and an MBA, etc. And do well. People, even though they hate said field, still throw money at them. That person just shrugs and moves on with doing it, because why not? The only difference is, they got a finance degree instead of an engineering or art degree. Can't blame their choices if they have the mental fortitude to deal with that shit. They made the best decision within their life goals. You don't take a degree with the mentality of "I want to spend money to make my life worse." If you have that outlook, better off on buying heroin.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  I think you can make the argument of MBA hate/dislike (not that I want to) from the perspective that in the late 80s a lot of previously engineer/artist-led fields went to studio & management lead. Hollywood had the United Artists Heaven's Gate flop and then moved into studio model. Engineering & business succumbed to the hostile takeover 80's guy shark. There's a well earned perspective that some management is incompetent or cheats with financial or social connections to get their job. I think management competence is a very important role, and quite often an understated performance that doesn't require the glitz and glamour it can have. The largest wage classes tend to be management now. The heroically competent worker does not get rewarded relative to others in the org like he used to, unless you specialise massively and have a reputation to boot. I don't think you can measure mental fortitude like that, but I haven't taken those jobs to compare. Some people are scared of money or behave irrationally with money. I've been to a few therapists that have high powered husbands or clients that illustrate just how irrational they can be. I can see the evidence for the spirit of malcontent with management but I would agree it's not something that can be half-heartedly expressed through a what is basically a meme. It needs to be articulated accurately if it is to improve.