9 ms·

A favorite quote of mine from Donald G Reinertsen's Principles of Product Development Flow: I used to think that sensible and compelling new ideas would be ado

A favorite quote of mine from Donald G Reinertsen's Principles of Product Development Flow: I used to think that sensible and compelling new ideas would be adopted quickly. Today, I believe this view is hopelessly naive. After all, it took 40 years before we recognized the power of the Toyota Production System.

Gibbon1 7y ago
In the US if you want to fix that you have to outlaw MBA programs. Because business schools are behind a lot of the decline in US Industry.
- williamDafoe 7y ago
  What? How can optimizing the most important criteria to the company (MBA salaries) - done scientifically by the MBAs - not lead to more success which is measured (or at least validated) by the number of MBAs hired in the next year?
- corodra 7y ago
  I'll say I do detest those with MBAs, mostly due to my bias since I didn't go to college. But even I'm going to say you're making a rather absurd statement that's filled with delusional correlation. MBA programs aren't the "cause" of US Industry decline. I don't even know where to begin with unpacking that they are the cause, because of the absurdity. MBA like programs (specialized business teachings to an advance level) have existed since the days of enterprise. The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. Don't forget too it's the consumer's dollar that ultimately has the "real vote" in where production happens. That's why the past two decades, small farms are more and more... viable is a strong word. But they're more popular and there are plenty that do well. Because certain consumers do vote "Yes, I think that a heritage chicken that's cage free and free range is worth the extra money compared to the commercial broiler breeds." But it's a real difficult sell on someone to tell them, "Hey, you can go into an industry where there's money being thrown around or you can try raising a dying industry from scratch and hope it works out for you before the end of your lifetime." It's the same reason we tell kids you should go into STEM classes and not basket weaving. If consumers already have a history in paying for something, why should someone go into something where there's a history of consumers NOT paying for something?
  - pbourke 7y ago
    > The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. The gospel of MBA programs changed to include financialization and outsourcing as two principal techniques that can be applied to every company and industry (they’re all the same, right?). This probably began in the early 80’s when the MBA began to gain currency as a respected degree. Furthermore there is a hostility between management and labor In the US that does not exist in other advanced manufacturing nations such as Germany and Japan. Blame can be placed on both sides for this situation, but nevertheless the MBA worldview is one that above all treats labor and human capital as a commodity to be managed like any other.
    - corodra 7y ago
      "I am hiring you because your single function in the company is to increase profits." "Well, some low lying fruit methods that have proven track record is financial market usage and outsourcing." "Do it." Works. A lot. Few years later. "We need more people that play the financial market and know how to properly outsource." MBA programs: "We'll teach more people to do so." Kind of just basic cause/effect rinse/repeat ambulance chasing. If using chicken bones to run a company actually works, you'd see an increase in hiring old gypsy women and fortune telling would become part of all MBA programs everywhere. I just don't see what everyone is getting at. "Go do learn things that will give you good job prospects and is something you like." "Well, an MBA has good job prospects and I like the business world." "You're a god damn piece of shit. I meant to do those things as long as I agree with them." I mean, come on. Are you really going to blame people that find an opportunity where they're good at something and gives them a better life? Basic damn human nature for anyone with a shred of ambition. Plus there are many flavors of MBA teachings. Each university has their own MBA style. There's no "One MBA doctrine". Same like each Ivy League has a different law approach as well. They all don't believe that outsourcing and financial gaming is the single solution to higher profits. As a group becomes reliant on a method, that makes them weak in others and allows for extra opportunity for exploitation due to a willingness to be blinded by comfort. To be fair, a lot of MBA programs do relate Sun Tzu teachings to business for real good reason. Adaptability is the first principle to success. Not just end methodologies. And remember, I fucking don't like MBAs to begin with. And you're forcing me to defend them, you ass. And Japan is literally the worst example you could provide for 1st world countries labor/management relations. Lookup Karoshi.
- jazzyk 7y ago
  MBA in itself is not a problem, but it should be required that MBA applicants have a 4-year degree NOT in business (preferably STEM). Most CEOs and high-level executives in Japan and Germany (and many other countries) typically have: - an educational background in the area they manage (say, mechanical engineering for car production) - long careers/experience in that area - passion for it (CEOs who race cars, etc) Unlike executive in the US, who: - have a 4-year business degree followed with an MBA - jump from industry to industry (Carly Fiorina, etc), - have no passion for the stuff they produce (they are typically finance or marketing guys) The end result is that US companies turn into marketing/branding shells who outsource everything except for branding/sales or some kind of financial engineering schemes (GE)
  - corodra 7y ago
    There was a 30 Rock episode that poked fun at exactly what you're saying. American business practices are steering more and more towards "consuming and repackaging" rather than producing. Which, I don't think the internet has really helped all that much... well... I think the whole influencer trend is more to blame, not the internet. For better or worse an influencer can make or break a product almost literally overnight. There were some wireless earbuds a year or two ago, where one guy on youtube said they don't work and were trash. Next day everyone... and I'm trying to remember here so a few facts might be wrong... cancelled their pre-orders or immediately returned them without even opening. Something like that. Well, it was maybe a week that company closed down. Then, some other people on youtube used them and said "They work fine and there's nothing wrong with them." Whether the dump on the company was justified or not. I literally don't know, I hate all wireless earbuds to begin with, I'm no expert. That, by itself, is a terrifying prospect. One slight misstep can be blown to crazy proportions. So, why not just "fuck it, just repackage something else we know works and move on. I want no emotional attachment to any of this, in case it blows up in my face." Before someone hits back, yes, the system can still do good, like the LockpickLawyer on youtube, showcasing shit, overpriced bike locks.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    That stems from the doctrine that leadership skills are industry independent. Unfortunately in reality every industry has a couple of big strategic issues that can't/aren't measured with a dollar value and the standard MBA business outlook ignores them in favour of measurable things. The downside of this is sometimes management attempts to optimise out the company's comparative advantages. Sometimes on purposes.
lazulicurio 7y ago
Forty years to recognize the power of the Toyota Production System, but another eighty to actually take those lessons to heart (if ever). A major stumbling block is the adversarial relationship between management and labor in the US[1]. TPS relies on a high-trust environment to function. [1] For example, in current events: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21166923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21166923
- golemiprague 7y ago
  It's not specifically the relationship, it is a cultural difference that goes deep into society, not something you can change, certainly not quick. People are different and cultures are different, but these days you can't say it loud because it is considered to be racism
  - mistermann 7y ago
    It's a shame you included the last part, otherwise it's an insightful comment. Effective change requires tact and self-discipline.
    - golemiprague 7y ago
      I am not ashamed in my views that there are differences between races. I didn't say one is better than other, just that there are differences which are partly cultural and partly genetic. But I won't say it aloud in certain places because I know people will react like you.
- klenwell 7y ago
  This is also a great listen on the subject: NUMMI (2015) A car plant in Fremont California that might have saved the U.S. car industry. In 1984, General Motors and Toyota opened NUMMI as a joint venture. Toyota showed GM the secrets of its production system: How it made cars of much higher quality and much lower cost than GM achieved. Frank Langfitt explains why GM didn't learn the lessons—until it was too late. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015

Gibbon1 7y ago

In the US if you want to fix that you have to outlaw MBA programs. Because business schools are behind a lot of the decline in US Industry.

williamDafoe 7y ago
What? How can optimizing the most important criteria to the company (MBA salaries) - done scientifically by the MBAs - not lead to more success which is measured (or at least validated) by the number of MBAs hired in the next year?
corodra 7y ago
I'll say I do detest those with MBAs, mostly due to my bias since I didn't go to college. But even I'm going to say you're making a rather absurd statement that's filled with delusional correlation. MBA programs aren't the "cause" of US Industry decline. I don't even know where to begin with unpacking that they are the cause, because of the absurdity. MBA like programs (specialized business teachings to an advance level) have existed since the days of enterprise. The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. Don't forget too it's the consumer's dollar that ultimately has the "real vote" in where production happens. That's why the past two decades, small farms are more and more... viable is a strong word. But they're more popular and there are plenty that do well. Because certain consumers do vote "Yes, I think that a heritage chicken that's cage free and free range is worth the extra money compared to the commercial broiler breeds." But it's a real difficult sell on someone to tell them, "Hey, you can go into an industry where there's money being thrown around or you can try raising a dying industry from scratch and hope it works out for you before the end of your lifetime." It's the same reason we tell kids you should go into STEM classes and not basket weaving. If consumers already have a history in paying for something, why should someone go into something where there's a history of consumers NOT paying for something?
- pbourke 7y ago
  > The only difference between now and antiquity is the fact we've standardized the model and the naming conventions. The gospel of MBA programs changed to include financialization and outsourcing as two principal techniques that can be applied to every company and industry (they’re all the same, right?). This probably began in the early 80’s when the MBA began to gain currency as a respected degree. Furthermore there is a hostility between management and labor In the US that does not exist in other advanced manufacturing nations such as Germany and Japan. Blame can be placed on both sides for this situation, but nevertheless the MBA worldview is one that above all treats labor and human capital as a commodity to be managed like any other.
  - corodra 7y ago
    "I am hiring you because your single function in the company is to increase profits." "Well, some low lying fruit methods that have proven track record is financial market usage and outsourcing." "Do it." Works. A lot. Few years later. "We need more people that play the financial market and know how to properly outsource." MBA programs: "We'll teach more people to do so." Kind of just basic cause/effect rinse/repeat ambulance chasing. If using chicken bones to run a company actually works, you'd see an increase in hiring old gypsy women and fortune telling would become part of all MBA programs everywhere. I just don't see what everyone is getting at. "Go do learn things that will give you good job prospects and is something you like." "Well, an MBA has good job prospects and I like the business world." "You're a god damn piece of shit. I meant to do those things as long as I agree with them." I mean, come on. Are you really going to blame people that find an opportunity where they're good at something and gives them a better life? Basic damn human nature for anyone with a shred of ambition. Plus there are many flavors of MBA teachings. Each university has their own MBA style. There's no "One MBA doctrine". Same like each Ivy League has a different law approach as well. They all don't believe that outsourcing and financial gaming is the single solution to higher profits. As a group becomes reliant on a method, that makes them weak in others and allows for extra opportunity for exploitation due to a willingness to be blinded by comfort. To be fair, a lot of MBA programs do relate Sun Tzu teachings to business for real good reason. Adaptability is the first principle to success. Not just end methodologies. And remember, I fucking don't like MBAs to begin with. And you're forcing me to defend them, you ass. And Japan is literally the worst example you could provide for 1st world countries labor/management relations. Lookup Karoshi.
jazzyk 7y ago
MBA in itself is not a problem, but it should be required that MBA applicants have a 4-year degree NOT in business (preferably STEM). Most CEOs and high-level executives in Japan and Germany (and many other countries) typically have: - an educational background in the area they manage (say, mechanical engineering for car production) - long careers/experience in that area - passion for it (CEOs who race cars, etc) Unlike executive in the US, who: - have a 4-year business degree followed with an MBA - jump from industry to industry (Carly Fiorina, etc), - have no passion for the stuff they produce (they are typically finance or marketing guys) The end result is that US companies turn into marketing/branding shells who outsource everything except for branding/sales or some kind of financial engineering schemes (GE)
- corodra 7y ago
  There was a 30 Rock episode that poked fun at exactly what you're saying. American business practices are steering more and more towards "consuming and repackaging" rather than producing. Which, I don't think the internet has really helped all that much... well... I think the whole influencer trend is more to blame, not the internet. For better or worse an influencer can make or break a product almost literally overnight. There were some wireless earbuds a year or two ago, where one guy on youtube said they don't work and were trash. Next day everyone... and I'm trying to remember here so a few facts might be wrong... cancelled their pre-orders or immediately returned them without even opening. Something like that. Well, it was maybe a week that company closed down. Then, some other people on youtube used them and said "They work fine and there's nothing wrong with them." Whether the dump on the company was justified or not. I literally don't know, I hate all wireless earbuds to begin with, I'm no expert. That, by itself, is a terrifying prospect. One slight misstep can be blown to crazy proportions. So, why not just "fuck it, just repackage something else we know works and move on. I want no emotional attachment to any of this, in case it blows up in my face." Before someone hits back, yes, the system can still do good, like the LockpickLawyer on youtube, showcasing shit, overpriced bike locks.
- roenxi 7y ago
  That stems from the doctrine that leadership skills are industry independent. Unfortunately in reality every industry has a couple of big strategic issues that can't/aren't measured with a dollar value and the standard MBA business outlook ignores them in favour of measurable things. The downside of this is sometimes management attempts to optimise out the company's comparative advantages. Sometimes on purposes.

lazulicurio 7y ago

Forty years to recognize the power of the Toyota Production System, but another eighty to actually take those lessons to heart (if ever). A major stumbling block is the adversarial relationship between management and labor in the US[1]. TPS relies on a high-trust environment to function. [1] For example, in current events: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21166923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21166923

golemiprague 7y ago
It's not specifically the relationship, it is a cultural difference that goes deep into society, not something you can change, certainly not quick. People are different and cultures are different, but these days you can't say it loud because it is considered to be racism
- mistermann 7y ago
  It's a shame you included the last part, otherwise it's an insightful comment. Effective change requires tact and self-discipline.
  - golemiprague 7y ago
    I am not ashamed in my views that there are differences between races. I didn't say one is better than other, just that there are differences which are partly cultural and partly genetic. But I won't say it aloud in certain places because I know people will react like you.
klenwell 7y ago
This is also a great listen on the subject: NUMMI (2015) A car plant in Fremont California that might have saved the U.S. car industry. In 1984, General Motors and Toyota opened NUMMI as a joint venture. Toyota showed GM the secrets of its production system: How it made cars of much higher quality and much lower cost than GM achieved. Frank Langfitt explains why GM didn't learn the lessons—until it was too late. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015