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> while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines. Currently electric car batteries weigh far more than a gasoline engine -

> while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines. Currently electric car batteries weigh far more than a gasoline engine - and the range is still worse. Saying the gasoline engine is heavy is weird when you're talking about replacing it with something significantly heavier.

braythwayt 7y ago
The reasonable rough approximation ought to be comparing two complete power trains including stored energy. For an AWD ICE car, that includes fuel, tank, engine, transmission, differentials, and drive shaft. For an AWD EV, that's two motors, batteries, and the rest of the cabling and infrastructure required for the batteries and motors.
- Judgmentality 7y ago
  I understand that and agree with you, but the wording of OP implied a gasoline engine is so heavy it would have a significant impact on the equation - with current technology that's really not true. You can find inline-4 engines in modern vehicles that weigh under 300 pounds, whereas the motor and inverter pack in the Model 3 weigh 350 pounds. Even so, this is all trumped by the fact that the battery pack by itself weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the motor.
  - asimpletune 7y ago
    Could they not have meant all that is included with gasoline engine cars? I didn’t interpret their statement as to be taken literally to strictly including the weight of engine alone.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement in a model 3 competitor. Plug in hybrids can get away with it, but at that point all 300lb could be used for larger battery packs.
    - Judgmentality 7y ago
      > Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement for a model 3 competitor. Are you saying a 300lb engine can't compete with a Model 3 in terms of driving performance? Here's a 5+ year old engine that weighs 290 pounds, makes just under 300 hp and lb-ft of torque in a stock vehicle. https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 With a mild tune (software upgrade, about $1000) you can turn a Golf R into a 11 second 1/4 mile car (you can do the same with a GTI, but it's a lot more work because it's FWD). It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-model-s-race-car-th-1827321127 https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-mod... Anyway, back to my original point - OP made a comment that seemed to me like the weight of gasoline engines was really important in comparing efficiencies - it's not. Right now gasoline vehicles are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. I look forward to the day electric vehicles have improved enough that they are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. But right now battery storage density is a real limiting factor in making that a reality, and the weight of the gasoline engine is nothing more than a second order effect. If you feel I am wrong, please provide numbers/calculations in your rebuttal - it will make for a much more data-driven discussion.
      - iknowstuff 7y ago
        > It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. Wow dude you're the king of misinformation. Why not link to a 2019 article reviewing Tesla Model 3's Track mode? https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod... The Model 3 has a dramatically different thermal management architecture and does not overheat like the Model S did.
        Judgmentality 7y ago
        Your article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet (your article is also from 2018) and strikes me as a bit of a PR piece. It does mention an impressive lap time scored by the Tesla - which is great - but I don't see anything that says the Tesla can drive multiple laps in a row without overheating. So far nobody has posted an impressive time for any Tesla on the Nurburgring - the track considered the gold standard for performance lap times for decades - and that seems to be because nobody can make it a single lap without the car overheating. I am aware that in the past month Tesla has been making a significant effort to post a good time, and they still haven't done so even with a custom vehicle. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-lap-record-attempt-testing-reports/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-... If you can show me a video or article of a Tesla racing 10+ laps in a row at any track without issue, or even doing 2+ fast laps in a row of the Nurburgring let me know. I just googled and couldn't find anything, other than anecdata of Teslas overheating and going into limp mode.
eloff 7y ago
The parent was specifically talking about energy density of gasoline versus batteries in Wh/kg. The battery weight is already considered.
IAmGraydon 7y ago
The battery is not the same thing as the motor. He’s saying that a motor is lighter than an engine, and this somewhat offsets the fact that batteries currently have lower energy density than gasoline.
anonuser123456 7y ago
Parents implied point is that something like miles for functional equivalence / energy unit denaity is much more telling. The ICE is like 37% efficient while battery is >90%, so while hydro carbon fuel is more energy dense, the usable density is considerably less than it's raw energy content due to waste.

braythwayt 7y ago

The reasonable rough approximation ought to be comparing two complete power trains including stored energy. For an AWD ICE car, that includes fuel, tank, engine, transmission, differentials, and drive shaft. For an AWD EV, that's two motors, batteries, and the rest of the cabling and infrastructure required for the batteries and motors.

Judgmentality 7y ago
I understand that and agree with you, but the wording of OP implied a gasoline engine is so heavy it would have a significant impact on the equation - with current technology that's really not true. You can find inline-4 engines in modern vehicles that weigh under 300 pounds, whereas the motor and inverter pack in the Model 3 weigh 350 pounds. Even so, this is all trumped by the fact that the battery pack by itself weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the motor.
- asimpletune 7y ago
  Could they not have meant all that is included with gasoline engine cars? I didn’t interpret their statement as to be taken literally to strictly including the weight of engine alone.
- Retric 7y ago
  Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement in a model 3 competitor. Plug in hybrids can get away with it, but at that point all 300lb could be used for larger battery packs.
  - Judgmentality 7y ago
    > Those 300lb engines would be a poor replacement for a model 3 competitor. Are you saying a 300lb engine can't compete with a Model 3 in terms of driving performance? Here's a 5+ year old engine that weighs 290 pounds, makes just under 300 hp and lb-ft of torque in a stock vehicle. https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 https://media.vw.com/en-us/releases/96 With a mild tune (software upgrade, about $1000) you can turn a Golf R into a 11 second 1/4 mile car (you can do the same with a GTI, but it's a lot more work because it's FWD). It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-model-s-race-car-th-1827321127 https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-mod... Anyway, back to my original point - OP made a comment that seemed to me like the weight of gasoline engines was really important in comparing efficiencies - it's not. Right now gasoline vehicles are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. I look forward to the day electric vehicles have improved enough that they are lighter, have longer range, and for many people are more convenient. But right now battery storage density is a real limiting factor in making that a reality, and the weight of the gasoline engine is nothing more than a second order effect. If you feel I am wrong, please provide numbers/calculations in your rebuttal - it will make for a much more data-driven discussion.
    - iknowstuff 7y ago
      > It will literally run laps around a Tesla at a racetrack because the Tesla will overheat. Wow dude you're the king of misinformation. Why not link to a 2019 article reviewing Tesla Model 3's Track mode? https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-model-3-performance-track-mode-release-version-review/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2019/tesla-mod... The Model 3 has a dramatically different thermal management architecture and does not overheat like the Model S did.
      - Judgmentality 7y ago
        Your article is reviewing a feature that hadn't been released to the public yet (your article is also from 2018) and strikes me as a bit of a PR piece. It does mention an impressive lap time scored by the Tesla - which is great - but I don't see anything that says the Tesla can drive multiple laps in a row without overheating. So far nobody has posted an impressive time for any Tesla on the Nurburgring - the track considered the gold standard for performance lap times for decades - and that seems to be because nobody can make it a single lap without the car overheating. I am aware that in the past month Tesla has been making a significant effort to post a good time, and they still haven't done so even with a custom vehicle. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-lap-record-attempt-testing-reports/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-model-s-nrburgring-... If you can show me a video or article of a Tesla racing 10+ laps in a row at any track without issue, or even doing 2+ fast laps in a row of the Nurburgring let me know. I just googled and couldn't find anything, other than anecdata of Teslas overheating and going into limp mode.

eloff 7y ago

The parent was specifically talking about energy density of gasoline versus batteries in Wh/kg. The battery weight is already considered.

IAmGraydon 7y ago

The battery is not the same thing as the motor. He’s saying that a motor is lighter than an engine, and this somewhat offsets the fact that batteries currently have lower energy density than gasoline.

anonuser123456 7y ago

Parents implied point is that something like miles for functional equivalence / energy unit denaity is much more telling. The ICE is like 37% efficient while battery is >90%, so while hydro carbon fuel is more energy dense, the usable density is considerably less than it's raw energy content due to waste.