4 ms·

I once read similar sentiment regarding the nazi efforts. I was curious, because I saw, probably like the U.S. did when they agreed to the exchange, that experi

by Iv 7y ago

I once read similar sentiment regarding the nazi efforts. I was curious, because I saw, probably like the U.S. did when they agreed to the exchange, that experimenting on humans like we did on animals could not possibly fail to give insights that would be almost impossible to get otherwise. Reading what they did, however, it really looked like the valued cruelty over science. The people they hired for that were not qualified (heh, turns out that sociopathic biologists who bought into nazi racist theories were not the brightest) and disregarded any kind of scientific method. Also one of their goal was to prove the inferiority of some races. Many experiments only had this goal in mind. I thought they experimented on humans like we do on animals. Animal experimentation may be cruel but cruelty is not the point, actually stress can impact the result in a big way. I remember they made experiment to see what temperatures the human body can handle. So they subject prisoners to various extreme conditions and... do not even note the time they were exposed to it. It was THAT amateurish. I really feel it was just torture renamed. "Hey, let's burn some Jews! We'll call it science!" "Ok, I'm in." Experiment result: the untermenschen died.

ashleyn 7y ago
Read about "German physics". Third Reich Germany's scientific community suffered greatly because they had purged all Jewish people, many of whom were highly qualified and disciplined. Fortunately for the rest of the world, this had a deleterious impact on their war machine as well. I've heard it quipped that "Jewish physics" ended the war.
- Iv 7y ago
  The most caricatural example was Heisenberg, who was working on the German nuclear program, made a lot of experimental mistakes (he was a very good theorist, an average experimenter) and it turns out that his assistant, who had been designing a lot of experiments, was Jewish and had fled a few years before. He made a crucial mistake in an experiment that was supposed to gauge the amount of uranium necessary to make a bomb. He failed to take into account impurities in a material. It made him assume the crucial mass necessary was 10x what it is. Ultimately nazi Germany, after several drawbacks, decided an atom bomb was too far away to pursue.
isoprophlex 7y ago
> I was curious, because I saw, probably like the U.S. did when they agreed to the exchange, that experimenting on humans like we did on animals could not possibly fail to give insights that would be almost impossible to get otherwise Exactly! In that light, these war crimes were doubly atrocious. They weren't even doing actual science.
deleted 7y ago
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leftyted 7y ago
> I really feel it was just torture renamed. "Hey, let's burn some Jews! We'll call it science!" "Ok, I'm in." Experiment result: the untermenschen died. In most cases they were doing actual science, just divorced from any recognizable morality. I'm less familiar with the Japanese case, but many of the Germans who did similar things were respected scientists (Carl Clauberg is an example). The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but it's not accurate. The truth is that these kinds of studies used to be not all that rare. The most famous is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, but there are others. In The US, in the 1920s, at least 800 prisoners were infected with Malaria. Joseph Goldberger similarly experimented on prisoners in attempt to understand pellagra (and refused to let them drop out when their symptoms became unbearable). Richard Strong famously injected people with plague. In some of these cases, subjects signed a waiver, but in others they didn't. Internees in camps could have been induced to sign a waiver if the Germans or Japanese had cared about that. Morality constrains science. That's a good thing. But it requires us to admit that we could learn more and more quickly if we had no morality. Understanding how radiation affects human reproductive systems or what the human body can withstand is valuable information. It just isn't information that we can obtain while staying with the guidelines of our morality.
- Iv 7y ago
  "The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but it's not accurate." I thought that. I was like "OK, no one wants to touch this and they are right, but there has to be some valuable insights!" IIRC the only thing that they learnt was that the human body can survive longer than they thought in very cold water, but even that was hinted by tons of anecdotal evidence. Really, the lack of protocols and basic measurements looks like it was sub-highschool level. Go read some of the reports, it was mostly about cruelty.

by Iv 7y ago

ashleyn 7y ago

Read about "German physics". Third Reich Germany's scientific community suffered greatly because they had purged all Jewish people, many of whom were highly qualified and disciplined. Fortunately for the rest of the world, this had a deleterious impact on their war machine as well. I've heard it quipped that "Jewish physics" ended the war.

Iv 7y ago
The most caricatural example was Heisenberg, who was working on the German nuclear program, made a lot of experimental mistakes (he was a very good theorist, an average experimenter) and it turns out that his assistant, who had been designing a lot of experiments, was Jewish and had fled a few years before. He made a crucial mistake in an experiment that was supposed to gauge the amount of uranium necessary to make a bomb. He failed to take into account impurities in a material. It made him assume the crucial mass necessary was 10x what it is. Ultimately nazi Germany, after several drawbacks, decided an atom bomb was too far away to pursue.

isoprophlex 7y ago

> I was curious, because I saw, probably like the U.S. did when they agreed to the exchange, that experimenting on humans like we did on animals could not possibly fail to give insights that would be almost impossible to get otherwise Exactly! In that light, these war crimes were doubly atrocious. They weren't even doing actual science.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

leftyted 7y ago

> I really feel it was just torture renamed. "Hey, let's burn some Jews! We'll call it science!" "Ok, I'm in." Experiment result: the untermenschen died. In most cases they were doing actual science, just divorced from any recognizable morality. I'm less familiar with the Japanese case, but many of the Germans who did similar things were respected scientists (Carl Clauberg is an example). The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but it's not accurate. The truth is that these kinds of studies used to be not all that rare. The most famous is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, but there are others. In The US, in the 1920s, at least 800 prisoners were infected with Malaria. Joseph Goldberger similarly experimented on prisoners in attempt to understand pellagra (and refused to let them drop out when their symptoms became unbearable). Richard Strong famously injected people with plague. In some of these cases, subjects signed a waiver, but in others they didn't. Internees in camps could have been induced to sign a waiver if the Germans or Japanese had cared about that. Morality constrains science. That's a good thing. But it requires us to admit that we could learn more and more quickly if we had no morality. Understanding how radiation affects human reproductive systems or what the human body can withstand is valuable information. It just isn't information that we can obtain while staying with the guidelines of our morality.

Iv 7y ago
"The desire to say "that's not real science" is emotional, but it's not accurate." I thought that. I was like "OK, no one wants to touch this and they are right, but there has to be some valuable insights!" IIRC the only thing that they learnt was that the human body can survive longer than they thought in very cold water, but even that was hinted by tons of anecdotal evidence. Really, the lack of protocols and basic measurements looks like it was sub-highschool level. Go read some of the reports, it was mostly about cruelty.