6 ms·

The theoretical maximum is higher than gasoline(1700Wh/Kg[2]), and that's what matters: rechargable Li/CuCl2 could offer 1166.4 Wh/kg[1], while recyclable, non

by petra 7y ago

The theoretical maximum is higher than gasoline(1700Wh/Kg[2]), and that's what matters: rechargable Li/CuCl2 could offer 1166.4 Wh/kg[1], while recyclable, non-rechargeable aluminum-air could offer 5200Wh/Kg[1]. Some batteries may have 200K recharge cycles[3]. Innolith is talking about a battery with 50K recharge cycles[4], but for the grid. They also talk abuot building a 1000Wh/Kg battery for cars. But who knows , they're a startup, so we'll need to wait and see. And phinergy, another startup working on recyclable aluminum-air battery - is planning to open a factory in India in 2020. [1]https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/4328/whats-the-highest-theoretical-energy-density-for-a-chemical-battery https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/4328/whats-t... [2]https://phys.org/news/2018-10-catalyst-high-energy-aluminum-air-batteries.html https://phys.org/news/2018-10-catalyst-high-energy-aluminum-... [3]https://www.pcmag.com/news/343967/researchers-stumble-on-a-200-000-cycle-battery https://www.pcmag.com/news/343967/researchers-stumble-on-a-2... [4]https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/10/10/innolith-launches-inflammable-battery-with-50000-charging-cycles/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/10/10/innolith-launches-inf...

geogra4 7y ago
That wouldn't be a huge problem, and probably much better for the world if we "gased up" with aluminum
- Klinky 7y ago
  Aluminum requires huge amounts of electricity to produce. Hopefully that electricity isn't coming from fossil fuels. However it does appear to be highly recyclable, at a fraction of the energy cost.
  - mrfusion 7y ago
    The beauty of electricity is that it can come from anywhere. And you don’t have to change anything in your process to change source of electricity.
    - chongli 7y ago
      Electricity is also much easier to transport over long distances, using high voltage DC lines, than it is to transport oil or gas via pipeline or truck.
      - barney54 7y ago
        And oil is much easier to transport over really long distances on tanker ships.
        chongli 7y ago
        Only if you neglect the huge externalities of tanker ships, with the extremely dirty fuels they burn and the occasional catastrophic spills.
        wilg 7y ago
        If you can have batteries with higher energy density than oil, why not fill up a ship with batteries?
        rjplatte 7y ago
        Because A/C lines are more efficient than either oil or batteries.
        wilg 7y ago
        Not over ocean distances though?
        8note 7y ago
        and can then be burned to make electricity
        ricardobeat 7y ago
        Batteries will also burn under the right conditions!
  - amluto 7y ago
    > Aluminum requires huge amounts of electricity to produce. That’s kind of the point. If you can produce aluminum efficiently (i.e. reduce Al2O3 to aluminum metal without using much more energy than the theoretical minimum) and then oxidize it back to Al2O3 efficiently in a car, you have a battery that stores a huge amount of energy. There is a rather spectacular non-battery use for this energy: thermite.
  - detritus 7y ago
    I can't remember where I read this (busy at work so, sorry, no source), but: There's a production/re-use cycle in Europe wherein Aluminium is processed and smelted in Iceland, turned into ingots which are sent to mainland Europe to be manufactured-with, and then resultant used product sent back to Iceland for melting down and processing back into ingots. The point being: Iceland uses geothermal energy to work Aluminium, so the entire process is one grand re/charge cycle of a significantly-used and energy-dense process. Next step - small, modular fission power sources for the likely-hydrocarbon based and heavily-polluting ships transporting it all back and forth.
Retric 7y ago
It’s important to realize gasoline is measured in thermal energy which is much harder to convert to useful work than electricity. A reasonable comparison cuts gasoline’s energy density in half at a minimum while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines.
- Judgmentality 7y ago
  > while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines. Currently electric car batteries weigh far more than a gasoline engine - and the range is still worse. Saying the gasoline engine is heavy is weird when you're talking about replacing it with something significantly heavier.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    The reasonable rough approximation ought to be comparing two complete power trains including stored energy. For an AWD ICE car, that includes fuel, tank, engine, transmission, differentials, and drive shaft. For an AWD EV, that's two motors, batteries, and the rest of the cabling and infrastructure required for the batteries and motors.
    - Judgmentality 7y ago
      I understand that and agree with you, but the wording of OP implied a gasoline engine is so heavy it would have a significant impact on the equation - with current technology that's really not true. You can find inline-4 engines in modern vehicles that weigh under 300 pounds, whereas the motor and inverter pack in the Model 3 weigh 350 pounds. Even so, this is all trumped by the fact that the battery pack by itself weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the motor.
      - asimpletune 7y ago
        Could they not have meant all that is included with gasoline engine cars? I didn’t interpret their statement as to be taken literally to strictly including the weight of engine alone.
new_realist 7y ago
What about volumetric density?
gigatexal 7y ago
Fascinating. I’m always intrigued in these style of answers. Where do super-capacitors fit in this?
- Iv 7y ago
  At least a 10x factor below. A table you may be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy...
- zaroth 7y ago
  Supercaps can provide higher peak energy flow, either for acceleration or regen. They can buffer the battery from rapid energy flux. I doubt very much they are going to actually store even 1kWh of total energy, because mass storage isn’t their strong suit.
- petra 7y ago
  >> Fascinating. I’m always intrigued in these style of answers. Me too. Does anybody know a technology site/community, focusing on the theoretical limits of what various technologies could do, and how do they work , instead of the day to day news?
  - gigatexal 7y ago
    The stackoverflow family I’d sited is good for discussions like this and is often nicer than the halo site when it comes to inclusion of questions (I use SO everyday but trying to give back by answering a questions or even asking one I have had not so great experiences). I really like the astronomy and physics exchanges.

by petra 7y ago

geogra4 7y ago

That wouldn't be a huge problem, and probably much better for the world if we "gased up" with aluminum

Klinky 7y ago
Aluminum requires huge amounts of electricity to produce. Hopefully that electricity isn't coming from fossil fuels. However it does appear to be highly recyclable, at a fraction of the energy cost.
- mrfusion 7y ago
  The beauty of electricity is that it can come from anywhere. And you don’t have to change anything in your process to change source of electricity.
  - chongli 7y ago
    Electricity is also much easier to transport over long distances, using high voltage DC lines, than it is to transport oil or gas via pipeline or truck.
    - barney54 7y ago
      And oil is much easier to transport over really long distances on tanker ships.
      - chongli 7y ago
        Only if you neglect the huge externalities of tanker ships, with the extremely dirty fuels they burn and the occasional catastrophic spills.
      - wilg 7y ago
        If you can have batteries with higher energy density than oil, why not fill up a ship with batteries?
        rjplatte 7y ago
        Because A/C lines are more efficient than either oil or batteries.
        wilg 7y ago
        Not over ocean distances though?
      - 8note 7y ago
        and can then be burned to make electricity
        ricardobeat 7y ago
        Batteries will also burn under the right conditions!
- amluto 7y ago
  > Aluminum requires huge amounts of electricity to produce. That’s kind of the point. If you can produce aluminum efficiently (i.e. reduce Al2O3 to aluminum metal without using much more energy than the theoretical minimum) and then oxidize it back to Al2O3 efficiently in a car, you have a battery that stores a huge amount of energy. There is a rather spectacular non-battery use for this energy: thermite.
- detritus 7y ago
  I can't remember where I read this (busy at work so, sorry, no source), but: There's a production/re-use cycle in Europe wherein Aluminium is processed and smelted in Iceland, turned into ingots which are sent to mainland Europe to be manufactured-with, and then resultant used product sent back to Iceland for melting down and processing back into ingots. The point being: Iceland uses geothermal energy to work Aluminium, so the entire process is one grand re/charge cycle of a significantly-used and energy-dense process. Next step - small, modular fission power sources for the likely-hydrocarbon based and heavily-polluting ships transporting it all back and forth.

Retric 7y ago

It’s important to realize gasoline is measured in thermal energy which is much harder to convert to useful work than electricity. A reasonable comparison cuts gasoline’s energy density in half at a minimum while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines.

Judgmentality 7y ago
> while a more practical analysis includes the much higher weight of gasoline engines. Currently electric car batteries weigh far more than a gasoline engine - and the range is still worse. Saying the gasoline engine is heavy is weird when you're talking about replacing it with something significantly heavier.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  The reasonable rough approximation ought to be comparing two complete power trains including stored energy. For an AWD ICE car, that includes fuel, tank, engine, transmission, differentials, and drive shaft. For an AWD EV, that's two motors, batteries, and the rest of the cabling and infrastructure required for the batteries and motors.
  - Judgmentality 7y ago
    I understand that and agree with you, but the wording of OP implied a gasoline engine is so heavy it would have a significant impact on the equation - with current technology that's really not true. You can find inline-4 engines in modern vehicles that weigh under 300 pounds, whereas the motor and inverter pack in the Model 3 weigh 350 pounds. Even so, this is all trumped by the fact that the battery pack by itself weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the motor.
    - asimpletune 7y ago
      Could they not have meant all that is included with gasoline engine cars? I didn’t interpret their statement as to be taken literally to strictly including the weight of engine alone.

new_realist 7y ago

What about volumetric density?

gigatexal 7y ago

Fascinating. I’m always intrigued in these style of answers. Where do super-capacitors fit in this?

Iv 7y ago
At least a 10x factor below. A table you may be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy...
zaroth 7y ago
Supercaps can provide higher peak energy flow, either for acceleration or regen. They can buffer the battery from rapid energy flux. I doubt very much they are going to actually store even 1kWh of total energy, because mass storage isn’t their strong suit.
petra 7y ago
>> Fascinating. I’m always intrigued in these style of answers. Me too. Does anybody know a technology site/community, focusing on the theoretical limits of what various technologies could do, and how do they work , instead of the day to day news?
- gigatexal 7y ago
  The stackoverflow family I’d sited is good for discussions like this and is often nicer than the halo site when it comes to inclusion of questions (I use SO everyday but trying to give back by answering a questions or even asking one I have had not so great experiences). I really like the astronomy and physics exchanges.