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What are the alternatives? Even with panspermia life would have had to begin elsewhere. The universe would have been too hot at the Big Bang to support organic

What are the alternatives? Even with panspermia life would have had to begin elsewhere. The universe would have been too hot at the Big Bang to support organic molecules if that theory is true. Even with “intelligent design” the intelligence would have its own heritage and origin. The implications of an alternative to abiogenesis seem outside the realm of scientific inquiry entirely. Is the desire here a coherent, detailed narrative for how we went from hot plasma to RNA?

novalis78 7y ago
If nothing else Panspermia allows for more time assuming a similar chemical process but over a much longer time horizon than ancient Earth.
Smithalicious 7y ago
>Even with “intelligent design” the intelligence would have its own heritage and origin Is this really a given? Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself. Or, alternatively, everything in the universe has a history stretching back infinitely far, but that's equally incomprehensible and still allows you to perform the same "trick" (in this case: life has always existed). Not saying that I believe in intelligent design, but in this case it seems to me that it does answer a question without creating any new ones.
- qubex 7y ago
  You’ve just run into the classical “Prime Mover” paradox of infinite regression.
- dTal 7y ago
  Without creating any new ones? I have quite a lot of questions for our erstwhile intelligent designer... If you're happy to entertain a causeless cause to explain life, why make it an intelligent designer, a very complicated object? Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause? A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe. All 'intelligent design' does is move the problem (and amplify it). I think an intelligent designer feels simpler to a human because "conscious entity" is implemented as a conceptual primitive in our minds, for obvious evolutionary reasons. The idea of a non-corporeal mind spontaneously arising feels more plausible than a single-celled organism spontaneously assembling, because we need many more symbols to represent the latter. But it's a misleading perception.
  - Smithalicious 7y ago
    I agree completely with your points on complexity, but I also don't see why the causeless cause would more plausibly be simple rather than complex. In fact, I think a simple origin creates more problems than a complex origin; if the origin is simple, you need to explain why the universe is complex.
    - dTal 7y ago
      We should seek to minimize incidental complexity; this is what an "explanation" is. "Explaining" the complexity of the universe by moving that complexity wholesale into an entity you're not allowed to ask questions about, doesn't actually "explain" anything at all. Fortunately, there's an abundance of evidence that complex phenomena can (and do, more often than not) arise from simple rules. Apart from this being the goal of all physics, at which it has been wildly successful, we can find examples all over mathematics. The cellular automaton "Rule 90" is a nice visual example of this: the rules are only a few bits and the initial state is a single cell, but the behavior is a tantalizing mix of ordered structures on the micro scale and chaos on the macro scale - a suggestive metaphor for our own universe. If you saw a picture of a section of Rule 90 without knowing what it was, and tried to explain it, which explanation feels more satisfying? A mathematical rule + initial conditions that fit into a few bits? Or "someone drew it in an image editor because they thought it looked pretty"? Which has more predictive power?
  - ibra77 7y ago
    > Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause? Because everything we know about this universe needs a cause, nothing in this universe is causeless, so you can't simply say that "something" inside that universe is causeless. And everything we know about life screams causality, from the need to eat and drink to generate energy, to sex for reproduction. If life can actually be causeless why is it so fragile and dependent on so many things to keep itself from death? > A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe. A cell is also not capable of creating itself out of nothing. Your lack of knowledge/understanding about how can something create the universe is not a justification for assuming that it created itself. You need a causeless cause (otherwise we wouldn't exist), so you either choose it to be the universe itself (which is a wild guess with zero evidence and hence not even scientific as you claim), or it is God (and yes you can't and will never understand how it is the first cause) I'd rather believe in God and his messages to us that brought actual evidence, than believe in an unconscious universe creating itself with no evidence.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  > Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself. Why not have the creator exist inside of time, or around it, or beside it? Maybe all existence was just out to tea right then with its creator, because the creator’s very attached to a particular tea flavor only found on earth, but will later be the creator, and will one day be in between two dozen creators? These are valid phrases that do not refer to literal relations, like “I am beside myself”, or “snapped back to reality”—the spatial foundations of these linguistic concepts refer to distance and spatial/time relations but don’t describe anything testable or reliably true. Intelligent design as a concept exploits language to imply absurd things, like that an omniscient omnipresent, omnipowerful, undetectable force is somehow also analogous to a mortal, finite, fallible, conscious human. FWIW all this applies to holographic universe theories as well. The narrative makes 100% sense, but it doesn’t refer to empirically meaningful concepts.
- bduerst 7y ago
  Intelligent design is a misnomer which has many forms, but at it's core it challenges naturalistic causation for abiogenesis on prebiotic Earth. It doesn't posit anything about other intelligence or life, just that the biological information necessary to kick off a self-replicating cell that undergoes evolution is too complex and too specific to happen randomly on Earth. Even naturalistic panspermia theories are compatible with intelligent design, because it shifts the frame of abiogenesis to different conditions where cellular formation may actually become probable.

novalis78 7y ago

If nothing else Panspermia allows for more time assuming a similar chemical process but over a much longer time horizon than ancient Earth.

Smithalicious 7y ago

>Even with “intelligent design” the intelligence would have its own heritage and origin Is this really a given? Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself. Or, alternatively, everything in the universe has a history stretching back infinitely far, but that's equally incomprehensible and still allows you to perform the same "trick" (in this case: life has always existed). Not saying that I believe in intelligent design, but in this case it seems to me that it does answer a question without creating any new ones.

qubex 7y ago
You’ve just run into the classical “Prime Mover” paradox of infinite regression.
dTal 7y ago
Without creating any new ones? I have quite a lot of questions for our erstwhile intelligent designer... If you're happy to entertain a causeless cause to explain life, why make it an intelligent designer, a very complicated object? Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause? A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe. All 'intelligent design' does is move the problem (and amplify it). I think an intelligent designer feels simpler to a human because "conscious entity" is implemented as a conceptual primitive in our minds, for obvious evolutionary reasons. The idea of a non-corporeal mind spontaneously arising feels more plausible than a single-celled organism spontaneously assembling, because we need many more symbols to represent the latter. But it's a misleading perception.
- Smithalicious 7y ago
  I agree completely with your points on complexity, but I also don't see why the causeless cause would more plausibly be simple rather than complex. In fact, I think a simple origin creates more problems than a complex origin; if the origin is simple, you need to explain why the universe is complex.
  - dTal 7y ago
    We should seek to minimize incidental complexity; this is what an "explanation" is. "Explaining" the complexity of the universe by moving that complexity wholesale into an entity you're not allowed to ask questions about, doesn't actually "explain" anything at all. Fortunately, there's an abundance of evidence that complex phenomena can (and do, more often than not) arise from simple rules. Apart from this being the goal of all physics, at which it has been wildly successful, we can find examples all over mathematics. The cellular automaton "Rule 90" is a nice visual example of this: the rules are only a few bits and the initial state is a single cell, but the behavior is a tantalizing mix of ordered structures on the micro scale and chaos on the macro scale - a suggestive metaphor for our own universe. If you saw a picture of a section of Rule 90 without knowing what it was, and tried to explain it, which explanation feels more satisfying? A mathematical rule + initial conditions that fit into a few bits? Or "someone drew it in an image editor because they thought it looked pretty"? Which has more predictive power?
- ibra77 7y ago
  > Why couldn't life itself be the causeless cause? Because everything we know about this universe needs a cause, nothing in this universe is causeless, so you can't simply say that "something" inside that universe is causeless. And everything we know about life screams causality, from the need to eat and drink to generate energy, to sex for reproduction. If life can actually be causeless why is it so fragile and dependent on so many things to keep itself from death? > A cell is much simpler than anything capable of inventing the universe. A cell is also not capable of creating itself out of nothing. Your lack of knowledge/understanding about how can something create the universe is not a justification for assuming that it created itself. You need a causeless cause (otherwise we wouldn't exist), so you either choose it to be the universe itself (which is a wild guess with zero evidence and hence not even scientific as you claim), or it is God (and yes you can't and will never understand how it is the first cause) I'd rather believe in God and his messages to us that brought actual evidence, than believe in an unconscious universe creating itself with no evidence.
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> Certainly there must be something in the universe that "started it all" and has no origin of itself. Why not have the creator exist inside of time, or around it, or beside it? Maybe all existence was just out to tea right then with its creator, because the creator’s very attached to a particular tea flavor only found on earth, but will later be the creator, and will one day be in between two dozen creators? These are valid phrases that do not refer to literal relations, like “I am beside myself”, or “snapped back to reality”—the spatial foundations of these linguistic concepts refer to distance and spatial/time relations but don’t describe anything testable or reliably true. Intelligent design as a concept exploits language to imply absurd things, like that an omniscient omnipresent, omnipowerful, undetectable force is somehow also analogous to a mortal, finite, fallible, conscious human. FWIW all this applies to holographic universe theories as well. The narrative makes 100% sense, but it doesn’t refer to empirically meaningful concepts.
bduerst 7y ago
Intelligent design is a misnomer which has many forms, but at it's core it challenges naturalistic causation for abiogenesis on prebiotic Earth. It doesn't posit anything about other intelligence or life, just that the biological information necessary to kick off a self-replicating cell that undergoes evolution is too complex and too specific to happen randomly on Earth. Even naturalistic panspermia theories are compatible with intelligent design, because it shifts the frame of abiogenesis to different conditions where cellular formation may actually become probable.