4 ms·

> It took a couple of decades here in the US for people to realize that TMAs are mostly nonsense. How are they mostly nonsense? A typical case might be use in

by gist 7y ago

> It took a couple of decades here in the US for people to realize that TMAs are mostly nonsense. How are they mostly nonsense? A typical case might be use in an unavoidable situation where some kind of defense is needed. Most people would probably want some kind of 'training' to be able to call on. That is if you can't walk away or avoid which would be the first choice. [1] Most people are probably not training thinking they are going to fight a determined adversary in a real battle. Saying it is 'mostly nonsense' is the same as saying locks are of no value. [1] That said I do think that training people for a night or a few lessons 'women learn how to defend yourself if attacked!' is for sure going to cause more harm than good very generally.

BubRoss 7y ago
They are mostly nonsense for any real fighting because they aren't full contact and aren't practiced with a resisting opponent. Traditional martial arts don't accomplish the things you listed. We now know from MMA that the martial arts 'styles' that work boil down to complete striking and grappling with submissions. There aren't any Tai Chi or shoalin Kung Fu masters out there winning MMA fights, which is all this guy set out to prove.
- hootbootscoot 7y ago
  "submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc. I don't think you got the correct message from the article (as outlined above: it was about exposing fraudulent "masters" and the incentivization of such fraudulent masters via the CCP.) A 200 pound person trained in TMA who also may have experience in XYZ context (read: actual something or other, MMA, or otherwise.) will probably do as well as the same weight and experience person with an MMA background. Complacency can also easily occur via an MMA background in confusing a streetfight for a match or sparring, as above. Aka: there are varying dynamic levels, from mere formal demonstrations of "moves", to people trying them out on each other in real-time but with less than harmful intentions, to competitive yet still structure brawling (you don't break the guys neck to end an MMA match) to shouting drunk with occasional jabs or scuffles on a street corner in some prolonged stupid social interaction, to something escalating ultra-rapidly in an unarmed state, to armed combat resulting in an unexpected close-range hand-to-hand encounter (both of the latter perhaps ending in the death of one or another combatent) try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    > try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say. Show me where I said that. > "submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc If it wasn't already obvious from the rest of your message it's obvious from this that you have no MMA experience and are guessing at everything. In a dark alley against a single person the best possible outcome would be to get on top with their belly down and use a blood choke which puts them out. That would be a submission, because in the gym you would stop when they tap. Everything else you said is so nonsensical I can't follow it enough to respond to it.
hash872 7y ago
They are mostly nonsense because they're not actually effective, and they've been proven ineffective in empirical tests- mixed fights with little to no rulesets. If you attempted to use Kung Fu to defend yourself against an 'unavoidable situation', you'd very likely lose. Testing in realistic situations- the point of the Deadspin article- is that MMA & its constituent martial arts (Muay Thai, boxing etc.) are what's actually effective. (Did you read the article?) It's like comparing the 'four humours' vs. modern medicine
- blackSnake 7y ago
  Progressive martial arts evolved out of traditional martial arts. A lot of it has to do with the practitioner himself. The progressive arts like MMA and Jui-Jitsu emphasize the combative aspect of the arts. Tai-Chi for the most part is nowadays mostly practiced for therapeutic benefits BUT I would argue that there are Tai Chi practitioners worth their weight in gold. The question is, what are you training for? If the Tai chi guy isnt sparring and moving around with other guys intensely, big surprise, theyre going to suck in a fight but that does not take away from the legitimacy and depth of the art. Tai chi still has blocks, kicks, strikes, ground grappling counters, standing grappling counters, etc. Do you think the masters of long ago didnt realize an opponent could take someone to the ground? All the components of MMA are inherent in the traditional arts. The question is why are you training? What are you training for? Are you testing your techniques against different kinda of opponents? Do you even care about fighting? Are you using your art to evolve beyond the fight? Does your martial art enrich you or take away from your wholeness? What is karate? What is Tai chi? What is aikido? How does it serve you? The arts are so deep.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    You are mixing 'value' with fighting effectiveness. Value to people for fitness, focus or whatever else is separate and not what is being talked about now. This guy is a political target because he demonstrates that TMA don't work in normal fights. The other part of your comment about TMA thoroughly integrating large parts of MMA is not true in a large sense, though if someone took a class with lots of full contact striking and submission grappling it would be at least somewhat effective regardless of what it is called.
rasz 7y ago
>How are they mostly nonsense? "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.". In TMAs you pretty much never ever get punched in the face, all the way to a black belt and smug feeling of superiority. At the Kickboxing gym I attended it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock and horror that people actually will hit you and it hurts.
- gist 7y ago
  > it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock Per my other comment if the person doing the martial arts were in a real life situation perhaps they would take a different approach or tactic. Sparring in a gym is not real life and doesn't measure what happens in a situation where someone might rely on TMA training and why they take it (in other words to defend themselves and not to spar)
  - rasz 7y ago
    I did WTF for over a year before kickboxing. My best friend, a red belt, decided to do a perfect bakkat makki(1) during a confrontation with some drunk idiots in front of a 24/7 mart. Turns out blocking an empty glass bottle with your bare arm is not the best idea ever, as evidenced by stitches on forearm and forehead. What martial arts did for him was false sense of “Don’t worry… I’ve got this”, and enough confidence to get hurt. WTF taught me splits and fancy useless head kicks like naeryo and dolyo chagi (roundhouse kick). Kickboxing taught me the second you try that on the street someone is going to grab your leg, put you on the ground and let his friends curb stomp your face to the asphalt. Taekwondo wasnt the worst offender, non contact Karate was close to the peak of bullshido. (1) something you spend pretty much half of every training drilling in useless forms fighting air, air never fights back.
    - gist 7y ago
      I agree with everything you are saying. But reminds me of the early days of anti lock braking and in particular all sorts of now more common electronic driving controls. In particular 'can't defy the law of physics'. A car spinning out will not stop spinning just because you have those breaks it's already in motion. In the case of your friend he did something stupid and got into a situation that he was not prepared for (I had to look up bakkat makki). He didn't recognize the bottle as being dangerous which in retrospect unless you think movies are real is kind of obvious. I was cut on my hand by accident years ago in a work situation by an art knife (by an employee). Same situation and it wasn't a fight. Agree with the kickboxing and I would even say as someone who had a bag as a kid and did karate kicks with it the power that you actually had seemed foolish in thinking you could disable someone with that. Maybe an old lady or a child. Otherwise so much time for someone to react.

by gist 7y ago

BubRoss 7y ago

They are mostly nonsense for any real fighting because they aren't full contact and aren't practiced with a resisting opponent. Traditional martial arts don't accomplish the things you listed. We now know from MMA that the martial arts 'styles' that work boil down to complete striking and grappling with submissions. There aren't any Tai Chi or shoalin Kung Fu masters out there winning MMA fights, which is all this guy set out to prove.

hootbootscoot 7y ago
"submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc. I don't think you got the correct message from the article (as outlined above: it was about exposing fraudulent "masters" and the incentivization of such fraudulent masters via the CCP.) A 200 pound person trained in TMA who also may have experience in XYZ context (read: actual something or other, MMA, or otherwise.) will probably do as well as the same weight and experience person with an MMA background. Complacency can also easily occur via an MMA background in confusing a streetfight for a match or sparring, as above. Aka: there are varying dynamic levels, from mere formal demonstrations of "moves", to people trying them out on each other in real-time but with less than harmful intentions, to competitive yet still structure brawling (you don't break the guys neck to end an MMA match) to shouting drunk with occasional jabs or scuffles on a street corner in some prolonged stupid social interaction, to something escalating ultra-rapidly in an unarmed state, to armed combat resulting in an unexpected close-range hand-to-hand encounter (both of the latter perhaps ending in the death of one or another combatent) try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  > try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say. Show me where I said that. > "submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc If it wasn't already obvious from the rest of your message it's obvious from this that you have no MMA experience and are guessing at everything. In a dark alley against a single person the best possible outcome would be to get on top with their belly down and use a blood choke which puts them out. That would be a submission, because in the gym you would stop when they tap. Everything else you said is so nonsensical I can't follow it enough to respond to it.

hash872 7y ago

They are mostly nonsense because they're not actually effective, and they've been proven ineffective in empirical tests- mixed fights with little to no rulesets. If you attempted to use Kung Fu to defend yourself against an 'unavoidable situation', you'd very likely lose. Testing in realistic situations- the point of the Deadspin article- is that MMA & its constituent martial arts (Muay Thai, boxing etc.) are what's actually effective. (Did you read the article?) It's like comparing the 'four humours' vs. modern medicine

blackSnake 7y ago
Progressive martial arts evolved out of traditional martial arts. A lot of it has to do with the practitioner himself. The progressive arts like MMA and Jui-Jitsu emphasize the combative aspect of the arts. Tai-Chi for the most part is nowadays mostly practiced for therapeutic benefits BUT I would argue that there are Tai Chi practitioners worth their weight in gold. The question is, what are you training for? If the Tai chi guy isnt sparring and moving around with other guys intensely, big surprise, theyre going to suck in a fight but that does not take away from the legitimacy and depth of the art. Tai chi still has blocks, kicks, strikes, ground grappling counters, standing grappling counters, etc. Do you think the masters of long ago didnt realize an opponent could take someone to the ground? All the components of MMA are inherent in the traditional arts. The question is why are you training? What are you training for? Are you testing your techniques against different kinda of opponents? Do you even care about fighting? Are you using your art to evolve beyond the fight? Does your martial art enrich you or take away from your wholeness? What is karate? What is Tai chi? What is aikido? How does it serve you? The arts are so deep.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  You are mixing 'value' with fighting effectiveness. Value to people for fitness, focus or whatever else is separate and not what is being talked about now. This guy is a political target because he demonstrates that TMA don't work in normal fights. The other part of your comment about TMA thoroughly integrating large parts of MMA is not true in a large sense, though if someone took a class with lots of full contact striking and submission grappling it would be at least somewhat effective regardless of what it is called.

rasz 7y ago

>How are they mostly nonsense? "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.". In TMAs you pretty much never ever get punched in the face, all the way to a black belt and smug feeling of superiority. At the Kickboxing gym I attended it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock and horror that people actually will hit you and it hurts.

gist 7y ago
> it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock Per my other comment if the person doing the martial arts were in a real life situation perhaps they would take a different approach or tactic. Sparring in a gym is not real life and doesn't measure what happens in a situation where someone might rely on TMA training and why they take it (in other words to defend themselves and not to spar)
- rasz 7y ago
  I did WTF for over a year before kickboxing. My best friend, a red belt, decided to do a perfect bakkat makki(1) during a confrontation with some drunk idiots in front of a 24/7 mart. Turns out blocking an empty glass bottle with your bare arm is not the best idea ever, as evidenced by stitches on forearm and forehead. What martial arts did for him was false sense of “Don’t worry… I’ve got this”, and enough confidence to get hurt. WTF taught me splits and fancy useless head kicks like naeryo and dolyo chagi (roundhouse kick). Kickboxing taught me the second you try that on the street someone is going to grab your leg, put you on the ground and let his friends curb stomp your face to the asphalt. Taekwondo wasnt the worst offender, non contact Karate was close to the peak of bullshido. (1) something you spend pretty much half of every training drilling in useless forms fighting air, air never fights back.
  - gist 7y ago
    I agree with everything you are saying. But reminds me of the early days of anti lock braking and in particular all sorts of now more common electronic driving controls. In particular 'can't defy the law of physics'. A car spinning out will not stop spinning just because you have those breaks it's already in motion. In the case of your friend he did something stupid and got into a situation that he was not prepared for (I had to look up bakkat makki). He didn't recognize the bottle as being dangerous which in retrospect unless you think movies are real is kind of obvious. I was cut on my hand by accident years ago in a work situation by an art knife (by an employee). Same situation and it wasn't a fight. Agree with the kickboxing and I would even say as someone who had a bag as a kid and did karate kicks with it the power that you actually had seemed foolish in thinking you could disable someone with that. Maybe an old lady or a child. Otherwise so much time for someone to react.