4 ms·

> modern framework/usable interface, Let me guess, some Electron monstrosity that looks like a web site but runs on a desktop?

by tomc1985 7y ago

horsawlarway 7y ago
Let me guess, you're the type of person that doesn't understand ROI? Let me guess, you'd rather have a holy war about shit your users don't give a flying fuck about? Let me guess, you want it to run in QT and use nothing but C++ despite the fact that it will take 4 times longer to reach users, and when it does it will be less stable, less usable, and harder to hire resources for? But it's cool, cause electron is slow, amirite guise!!?!?!?!
- tomc1985 7y ago
  Honestly if someone doesn't like Calibre so much it would be better to contribute to it, or fork it. And yes, electron sucks and it ruined desktop software because a bunch of business brats have to cut costs on software craftsmanship. This "modern UI" crap is a lie. Software using native widgets (or even JVM) is fine, but hey take it to extremes
  - horsawlarway 7y ago
    I don't have a problem with Calibre. I have a problem with asshats spouting off with Electron hate. I use Arch every freaking day. We have finally gotten to the point where basically any vendor can release software day one that will work for me. They use electron. Most of them don't even freaking test on linux, but it still just works. Better yet, it works and those companies literally spent zero effort on it! Better Better yet, those companies have easy access to developers with the skillsets they need to continue providing me features. Does electron have warts? Abso-fucking-lutely. But I'd take a large download and slightly slower execution ANY day in exchange for native support on the platform of my choice. You can fuck right off with your "it ruined desktop software" bullshit.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - blub 7y ago
      I'd wager most of us that dislike Electron aren't at the point that we're so desperate for software, that we would lower our standards regarding usability, resource consumption and platform integration. For me it's definitely not a problem that I'm missing software X which is only available as an Electron app. The Electron apps I use are required to interact with some piece of hardware (syncing, etc) and have completely custom UIs, which work most of the time, but have super-weird limitations or UX bugs, because you can't reinvent decades of UX on all platforms without forgetting or messing up several things. And then there's MS Teams, which proves either that Microsoft can't write working software, or that Electron isn't able to offer a way of building working software. Probably both.
      - coldacid 7y ago
        Counterpoint: Visual Studio Code is great software from Microsoft that was built on Electron. However, it's the ONLY app I've ever seen built on Electron that isn't a slow and voracious consumer of all resources on a system.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    Meanwhile I like Electron/web-stack for desktop applications I can write plugins for. I like classic DOM + HTML + CSS + JS tech. I've written scratch-my-own-itch plugins for VSCode/Atom that I never would've written if it was Javafx or Swing or something. And I also benefit when other people find it as hackable because it uses such familiar tech -- the ecosystem benefits. It's all trade-offs.
  - filmgirlcw 7y ago
    If you’re actually talking about ruined software craftsmanship and mentioning JVM in the same paragraph, I have a hard time taking this critique seriously. (Java is great on the server — it’s not great on the desktop, which is what we are talking about) Electron isn’t perfect and plenty of people who build apps with it make bad design and architectural decisions. But the same could be said for any other cross-platform framework or language. There are trade-offs, period.
- bayindirh 7y ago
  Python is a perfectly fine language for something like Calibre. I'm maintaining my growing library with it, and it's doing more than a decent job. Also I'm using Kobo utilities and it's neither prohibitively slow, nor it's useless. If you want something pretty but basic, you can use bookworm. It's also an electron app, so you can try how it can perform. > But it's cool, cause electron is slow, amirite guise!!?!?!?! Sorry, but electron is literally slow and bloated. In case of Atom (the flagship app using Electron), using 600MB of RAM at the startup without the ability to load large files, or being not on par with BBEdit feature-wise, which uses 60MB at the start, is blatant waste of resources. My Eclipse installation is using 600 MB of RAM (like Atom) out of the box with quadruple amount of features and orders of magnitude higher speed. > Le me guess, you're the type of person that doesn't understand ROI? I'd rather write an Atom-like application with Python, Java or similar and have much better ROI while not requiring small portable servers from my users to just edit some little scripts and push them to git(hub/lab). Using Electron is a wrong type of investment for future of your application due to its power and space requirements, but it's cool, cause hardware is cheap, amirite guise!!?!?!?!
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please review the site guidelines and stick to the rules when posting here? You broke them with this, and even worse with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21160833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21160833. That's not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
novok 7y ago
TBH, since it's a server application that would be displaying some fairly basic stuff, whats wrong with a simple web app that you run in your browser?
- filmgirlcw 7y ago
  Nothing! There are a lot of web-front ends for Calibre, actually. And that’s also why you have some really great iOS apps for accessing your library. For me, the value of Calibre is more in the plugins than the serving mechanism — which is where the bad design becomes frustrating. But again, despite being frustrated by the app, I’m so grateful to the developer for making it, because I would rather have this version of Calibre then no Calibre at all.
filmgirlcw 7y ago
Why would it matter? My initial design doc was going to be Swift-based and in my “pie-in-the-sky” goal, it would be a native macOS app. But part of the value of Calibre is that it is cross-platform and so yes, Electron was a strong option because for cross-platform development, I definitely don’t think it is worse than QT or Java. There are a lot of bad Electron applications, but apps like Visual Studio Code* prove that as with anything, you can make a really fantastic experience if you put the right work into it. But it doesn’t matter anyway. The amount of work that would be required would be monumental and the payoff wouldn’t be worth it. Which is why I have tremendous respect for the Calibre developer. I don’t agree with his design decisions and I wish the app was more usable, but I fully acknowledge that nothing else exists and that no one else is willing to do the work to make a better version. * Disclosure: I work at Microsoft but not on VS Code. I have huge respect for the VS Code and the Electron team, however.
dang 7y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> modern framework/usable interface, Let me guess, some Electron monstrosity that looks like a web site but runs on a desktop?

horsawlarway 7y ago

Let me guess, you're the type of person that doesn't understand ROI? Let me guess, you'd rather have a holy war about shit your users don't give a flying fuck about? Let me guess, you want it to run in QT and use nothing but C++ despite the fact that it will take 4 times longer to reach users, and when it does it will be less stable, less usable, and harder to hire resources for? But it's cool, cause electron is slow, amirite guise!!?!?!?!

tomc1985 7y ago
Honestly if someone doesn't like Calibre so much it would be better to contribute to it, or fork it. And yes, electron sucks and it ruined desktop software because a bunch of business brats have to cut costs on software craftsmanship. This "modern UI" crap is a lie. Software using native widgets (or even JVM) is fine, but hey take it to extremes
- horsawlarway 7y ago
  I don't have a problem with Calibre. I have a problem with asshats spouting off with Electron hate. I use Arch every freaking day. We have finally gotten to the point where basically any vendor can release software day one that will work for me. They use electron. Most of them don't even freaking test on linux, but it still just works. Better yet, it works and those companies literally spent zero effort on it! Better Better yet, those companies have easy access to developers with the skillsets they need to continue providing me features. Does electron have warts? Abso-fucking-lutely. But I'd take a large download and slightly slower execution ANY day in exchange for native support on the platform of my choice. You can fuck right off with your "it ruined desktop software" bullshit.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - blub 7y ago
    I'd wager most of us that dislike Electron aren't at the point that we're so desperate for software, that we would lower our standards regarding usability, resource consumption and platform integration. For me it's definitely not a problem that I'm missing software X which is only available as an Electron app. The Electron apps I use are required to interact with some piece of hardware (syncing, etc) and have completely custom UIs, which work most of the time, but have super-weird limitations or UX bugs, because you can't reinvent decades of UX on all platforms without forgetting or messing up several things. And then there's MS Teams, which proves either that Microsoft can't write working software, or that Electron isn't able to offer a way of building working software. Probably both.
    - coldacid 7y ago
      Counterpoint: Visual Studio Code is great software from Microsoft that was built on Electron. However, it's the ONLY app I've ever seen built on Electron that isn't a slow and voracious consumer of all resources on a system.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  Meanwhile I like Electron/web-stack for desktop applications I can write plugins for. I like classic DOM + HTML + CSS + JS tech. I've written scratch-my-own-itch plugins for VSCode/Atom that I never would've written if it was Javafx or Swing or something. And I also benefit when other people find it as hackable because it uses such familiar tech -- the ecosystem benefits. It's all trade-offs.
- filmgirlcw 7y ago
  If you’re actually talking about ruined software craftsmanship and mentioning JVM in the same paragraph, I have a hard time taking this critique seriously. (Java is great on the server — it’s not great on the desktop, which is what we are talking about) Electron isn’t perfect and plenty of people who build apps with it make bad design and architectural decisions. But the same could be said for any other cross-platform framework or language. There are trade-offs, period.
bayindirh 7y ago
Python is a perfectly fine language for something like Calibre. I'm maintaining my growing library with it, and it's doing more than a decent job. Also I'm using Kobo utilities and it's neither prohibitively slow, nor it's useless. If you want something pretty but basic, you can use bookworm. It's also an electron app, so you can try how it can perform. > But it's cool, cause electron is slow, amirite guise!!?!?!?! Sorry, but electron is literally slow and bloated. In case of Atom (the flagship app using Electron), using 600MB of RAM at the startup without the ability to load large files, or being not on par with BBEdit feature-wise, which uses 60MB at the start, is blatant waste of resources. My Eclipse installation is using 600 MB of RAM (like Atom) out of the box with quadruple amount of features and orders of magnitude higher speed. > Le me guess, you're the type of person that doesn't understand ROI? I'd rather write an Atom-like application with Python, Java or similar and have much better ROI while not requiring small portable servers from my users to just edit some little scripts and push them to git(hub/lab). Using Electron is a wrong type of investment for future of your application due to its power and space requirements, but it's cool, cause hardware is cheap, amirite guise!!?!?!?!
dang 7y ago
Would you please review the site guidelines and stick to the rules when posting here? You broke them with this, and even worse with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21160833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21160833. That's not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

novok 7y ago

TBH, since it's a server application that would be displaying some fairly basic stuff, whats wrong with a simple web app that you run in your browser?

filmgirlcw 7y ago
Nothing! There are a lot of web-front ends for Calibre, actually. And that’s also why you have some really great iOS apps for accessing your library. For me, the value of Calibre is more in the plugins than the serving mechanism — which is where the bad design becomes frustrating. But again, despite being frustrated by the app, I’m so grateful to the developer for making it, because I would rather have this version of Calibre then no Calibre at all.

filmgirlcw 7y ago

Why would it matter? My initial design doc was going to be Swift-based and in my “pie-in-the-sky” goal, it would be a native macOS app. But part of the value of Calibre is that it is cross-platform and so yes, Electron was a strong option because for cross-platform development, I definitely don’t think it is worse than QT or Java. There are a lot of bad Electron applications, but apps like Visual Studio Code* prove that as with anything, you can make a really fantastic experience if you put the right work into it. But it doesn’t matter anyway. The amount of work that would be required would be monumental and the payoff wouldn’t be worth it. Which is why I have tremendous respect for the Calibre developer. I don’t agree with his design decisions and I wish the app was more usable, but I fully acknowledge that nothing else exists and that no one else is willing to do the work to make a better version. * Disclosure: I work at Microsoft but not on VS Code. I have huge respect for the VS Code and the Electron team, however.

dang 7y ago

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html