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If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.

malvosenior 7y ago
That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.
- ddingus 7y ago
  Both of you have valid points. I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life. Our choices matter. Of course they do. What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes. No matter how great our ability to choose is, the fact is only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. The other fact is luck plays a huge role.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure it's unnecessary. Not everyone can live an upper middle class lifestyle. My main message is that there's culture changes that can and must be enacted within those communities or individuals that will provide opportunity.
    - ddingus 7y ago
      Yes, and the system we live under selects away from that. A majority are struggling today. Unnecessary.
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        I think you'll find it's not just "today". The majority have always struggled.
        ddingus 7y ago
        Regardless, the current and growing level of struggle is unnecessary. Examples elsewhere in the world are not hard to find.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I'm not sure I agree with you. By pretty much every measure, humans are living better lives than in all of the history of humanity. https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy
        ddingus 7y ago
        In basic terms, wealth is about time. Poor people, regardless of the relative wealth or advancement in the society they live in, have most of their time purposed for them. Wealthy people purpose most of their time. The majority struggling are poor in this sense. That is unnecessary. As a species, yes! We are doing well. No argument. Here, right now, in the US, a majority suffer. Their income is not up to their cost and risk exposure, particularly with health care. They labor too much. I could go on. Massive gains have not played out as solid gains in life quality and wealth basics most would agree were set decades ago.
    - ddingus 7y ago
      I strongly disagree. Basic, systemic change is needed. Blaming people holds no answers.
throwaway631673 7y ago
I disagree. Yes, you should not tell other people how to live their lives. But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle. I had to support my brothers for a long time. They just stayed with my parents, played video games all day, hung out with wrong crowd at night, and complained about lack of money. My parents would guilt me into giving my brothers some handout. And then they complained about capitalism. And I would complain about them not working and not able to do thing I wanted to with my money but my parent always shamed me for being selfish. After a lot of nagging and many time refusing to give handouts, they slowly got decent jobs and are doing pretty good. I just wish I had nagged earlier and stopped supporting their lifestyle with my money. So based on my personal experiences, I don't agree that we should spend our tax dollars on helping poor but don't shame them about their unhealthy lifestyle.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle." But my tax dollars go to handouts for things I think are bad choices all the time to the wealthy! My tax dollars are used to subsidize industries I don't agree with to continue in their wasteful useage of resources. If we are to protest bad decisions begging for handouts, we should first complain about the lifestyles of board members of companies. Johnson and Johnson knowingly created abestos-laden baby powder[1] and they recieved 8 million in federal subidies, 80 million in state/local ones. With an additional 10 million in federal loans. [0] 0. https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-johnson https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-... 1. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsona...
  - malandrew 7y ago
    That's not an argument against the point you're replying to. We shouldn't subsidize wastefulness by either the rich or the poor when they make poor choices and squander opportunities and resources.
newen 7y ago
It's their choice to spend their days watching football because there is a culture of anti-intellectualism. It's not as simple as it's their choice so don't criticize it.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  I disagree. If people fail to better themselves because they're surrounded anti-intellectuals, then nobody in the lower middle class would ever rise to upper middle; they would fail to challenge that culture. It's a personal choice to go with or against the prevailing culture. I empathize with the fact, that for many people who do want to better themselves, they're often surrounded by people who don't want to. And that's a tough situation to be in -- that can drag you down. It's tough to persevere in certain situations.
malandrew 7y ago
I don't concern myself with what such people do up until they start voting for politicians that want to raise taxes on everyone else to subsidize their lifestyle.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  It's the same with personal health choices. You don't just die in a vacuum when your health decisions come home to roost. Rather, you take from finite, shared medical resources. For that reason, "my body, my choices" isn't as bulletproof as it seems at first glance. I'm reminded of all the people who weren't allowed back into evacuation zones during the latest surge of forest fires to save more belongings from their house. People invoke the reasonable point of "I should be able to make that gamble if I want" but in reality, if they were to find themselves in danger, they'd be squandering resources of emergency responders having to save them and the attention of other people who should be working on evacuating swiftly rather than saving their neighbor. It's not always obvious where to draw the line when concerning ourselves with the actions of others.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  Money as it currently exists isn't personal property, it's an instrument for managing debt incurred by economic activity. Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests. Sucks for you, but then, it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    > Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests We shouldn't be prioritizing anyone's interests via an institution with the right to licit first use of force. We have the technology now to charge people directly for the government-provided services they use. If you use it, you should pay for it. Until we start doing this, society is never going to price things properly and prices are the fastest mechanism for a society to communicate what is important. Unilaterally taking away IOUs someone has accumulated without recompense merely deprioritizing someone's interests. It's theft. > it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle. what aspects of my lifestyle do you believe society over-subsidizing?
refurb 7y ago
That's fine, it's their life. But they have to live with the consequences of their choices which may include poverty.

malvosenior 7y ago

That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.

ddingus 7y ago
Both of you have valid points. I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life. Our choices matter. Of course they do. What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes. No matter how great our ability to choose is, the fact is only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. The other fact is luck plays a huge role.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure it's unnecessary. Not everyone can live an upper middle class lifestyle. My main message is that there's culture changes that can and must be enacted within those communities or individuals that will provide opportunity.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    Yes, and the system we live under selects away from that. A majority are struggling today. Unnecessary.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      I think you'll find it's not just "today". The majority have always struggled.
      - ddingus 7y ago
        Regardless, the current and growing level of struggle is unnecessary. Examples elsewhere in the world are not hard to find.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I'm not sure I agree with you. By pretty much every measure, humans are living better lives than in all of the history of humanity. https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy
        ddingus 7y ago
        In basic terms, wealth is about time. Poor people, regardless of the relative wealth or advancement in the society they live in, have most of their time purposed for them. Wealthy people purpose most of their time. The majority struggling are poor in this sense. That is unnecessary. As a species, yes! We are doing well. No argument. Here, right now, in the US, a majority suffer. Their income is not up to their cost and risk exposure, particularly with health care. They labor too much. I could go on. Massive gains have not played out as solid gains in life quality and wealth basics most would agree were set decades ago.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    I strongly disagree. Basic, systemic change is needed. Blaming people holds no answers.

throwaway631673 7y ago

I disagree. Yes, you should not tell other people how to live their lives. But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle. I had to support my brothers for a long time. They just stayed with my parents, played video games all day, hung out with wrong crowd at night, and complained about lack of money. My parents would guilt me into giving my brothers some handout. And then they complained about capitalism. And I would complain about them not working and not able to do thing I wanted to with my money but my parent always shamed me for being selfish. After a lot of nagging and many time refusing to give handouts, they slowly got decent jobs and are doing pretty good. I just wish I had nagged earlier and stopped supporting their lifestyle with my money. So based on my personal experiences, I don't agree that we should spend our tax dollars on helping poor but don't shame them about their unhealthy lifestyle.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
"But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle." But my tax dollars go to handouts for things I think are bad choices all the time to the wealthy! My tax dollars are used to subsidize industries I don't agree with to continue in their wasteful useage of resources. If we are to protest bad decisions begging for handouts, we should first complain about the lifestyles of board members of companies. Johnson and Johnson knowingly created abestos-laden baby powder[1] and they recieved 8 million in federal subidies, 80 million in state/local ones. With an additional 10 million in federal loans. [0] 0. https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-johnson https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-... 1. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsona...
- malandrew 7y ago
  That's not an argument against the point you're replying to. We shouldn't subsidize wastefulness by either the rich or the poor when they make poor choices and squander opportunities and resources.

newen 7y ago

It's their choice to spend their days watching football because there is a culture of anti-intellectualism. It's not as simple as it's their choice so don't criticize it.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
I disagree. If people fail to better themselves because they're surrounded anti-intellectuals, then nobody in the lower middle class would ever rise to upper middle; they would fail to challenge that culture. It's a personal choice to go with or against the prevailing culture. I empathize with the fact, that for many people who do want to better themselves, they're often surrounded by people who don't want to. And that's a tough situation to be in -- that can drag you down. It's tough to persevere in certain situations.

malandrew 7y ago

I don't concern myself with what such people do up until they start voting for politicians that want to raise taxes on everyone else to subsidize their lifestyle.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
It's the same with personal health choices. You don't just die in a vacuum when your health decisions come home to roost. Rather, you take from finite, shared medical resources. For that reason, "my body, my choices" isn't as bulletproof as it seems at first glance. I'm reminded of all the people who weren't allowed back into evacuation zones during the latest surge of forest fires to save more belongings from their house. People invoke the reasonable point of "I should be able to make that gamble if I want" but in reality, if they were to find themselves in danger, they'd be squandering resources of emergency responders having to save them and the attention of other people who should be working on evacuating swiftly rather than saving their neighbor. It's not always obvious where to draw the line when concerning ourselves with the actions of others.
bsanr2 7y ago
Money as it currently exists isn't personal property, it's an instrument for managing debt incurred by economic activity. Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests. Sucks for you, but then, it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.
- malandrew 7y ago
  > Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests We shouldn't be prioritizing anyone's interests via an institution with the right to licit first use of force. We have the technology now to charge people directly for the government-provided services they use. If you use it, you should pay for it. Until we start doing this, society is never going to price things properly and prices are the fastest mechanism for a society to communicate what is important. Unilaterally taking away IOUs someone has accumulated without recompense merely deprioritizing someone's interests. It's theft. > it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle. what aspects of my lifestyle do you believe society over-subsidizing?

refurb 7y ago

That's fine, it's their life. But they have to live with the consequences of their choices which may include poverty.