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As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modicum of effort. I grew up asking everyone (friends, family, neighbors): Why won't you read book? Why do you "hate" math? Why are computers "for nerds"? Why do you spend all of your time watching football? I'm now much more successful than the people who ignored or derided me during that time period. Was it easy for me to get ahead? No. But it is possible; oh and I wasn't one of those people with parents who worked hard, a good family life or supportive community around me. I was on my own.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    Both of you have valid points. I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life. Our choices matter. Of course they do. What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes. No matter how great our ability to choose is, the fact is only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. The other fact is luck plays a huge role.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      > only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure it's unnecessary. Not everyone can live an upper middle class lifestyle. My main message is that there's culture changes that can and must be enacted within those communities or individuals that will provide opportunity.
      - ddingus 7y ago
        Yes, and the system we live under selects away from that. A majority are struggling today. Unnecessary.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I think you'll find it's not just "today". The majority have always struggled.
        ddingus 7y ago
        Regardless, the current and growing level of struggle is unnecessary. Examples elsewhere in the world are not hard to find.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I'm not sure I agree with you. By pretty much every measure, humans are living better lives than in all of the history of humanity. https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy
        ddingus 7y ago
        In basic terms, wealth is about time. Poor people, regardless of the relative wealth or advancement in the society they live in, have most of their time purposed for them. Wealthy people purpose most of their time. The majority struggling are poor in this sense. That is unnecessary. As a species, yes! We are doing well. No argument. Here, right now, in the US, a majority suffer. Their income is not up to their cost and risk exposure, particularly with health care. They labor too much. I could go on. Massive gains have not played out as solid gains in life quality and wealth basics most would agree were set decades ago.
- throwaway631673 7y ago
  I disagree. Yes, you should not tell other people how to live their lives. But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle. I had to support my brothers for a long time. They just stayed with my parents, played video games all day, hung out with wrong crowd at night, and complained about lack of money. My parents would guilt me into giving my brothers some handout. And then they complained about capitalism. And I would complain about them not working and not able to do thing I wanted to with my money but my parent always shamed me for being selfish. After a lot of nagging and many time refusing to give handouts, they slowly got decent jobs and are doing pretty good. I just wish I had nagged earlier and stopped supporting their lifestyle with my money. So based on my personal experiences, I don't agree that we should spend our tax dollars on helping poor but don't shame them about their unhealthy lifestyle.
  - SolaceQuantum 7y ago
    "But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle." But my tax dollars go to handouts for things I think are bad choices all the time to the wealthy! My tax dollars are used to subsidize industries I don't agree with to continue in their wasteful useage of resources. If we are to protest bad decisions begging for handouts, we should first complain about the lifestyles of board members of companies. Johnson and Johnson knowingly created abestos-laden baby powder[1] and they recieved 8 million in federal subidies, 80 million in state/local ones. With an additional 10 million in federal loans. [0] 0. https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-johnson https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-... 1. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsona...
    - malandrew 7y ago
      That's not an argument against the point you're replying to. We shouldn't subsidize wastefulness by either the rich or the poor when they make poor choices and squander opportunities and resources.
- newen 7y ago
  It's their choice to spend their days watching football because there is a culture of anti-intellectualism. It's not as simple as it's their choice so don't criticize it.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    I disagree. If people fail to better themselves because they're surrounded anti-intellectuals, then nobody in the lower middle class would ever rise to upper middle; they would fail to challenge that culture. It's a personal choice to go with or against the prevailing culture. I empathize with the fact, that for many people who do want to better themselves, they're often surrounded by people who don't want to. And that's a tough situation to be in -- that can drag you down. It's tough to persevere in certain situations.
- malandrew 7y ago
  I don't concern myself with what such people do up until they start voting for politicians that want to raise taxes on everyone else to subsidize their lifestyle.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    It's the same with personal health choices. You don't just die in a vacuum when your health decisions come home to roost. Rather, you take from finite, shared medical resources. For that reason, "my body, my choices" isn't as bulletproof as it seems at first glance. I'm reminded of all the people who weren't allowed back into evacuation zones during the latest surge of forest fires to save more belongings from their house. People invoke the reasonable point of "I should be able to make that gamble if I want" but in reality, if they were to find themselves in danger, they'd be squandering resources of emergency responders having to save them and the attention of other people who should be working on evacuating swiftly rather than saving their neighbor. It's not always obvious where to draw the line when concerning ourselves with the actions of others.
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    Money as it currently exists isn't personal property, it's an instrument for managing debt incurred by economic activity. Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests. Sucks for you, but then, it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      > Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests We shouldn't be prioritizing anyone's interests via an institution with the right to licit first use of force. We have the technology now to charge people directly for the government-provided services they use. If you use it, you should pay for it. Until we start doing this, society is never going to price things properly and prices are the fastest mechanism for a society to communicate what is important. Unilaterally taking away IOUs someone has accumulated without recompense merely deprioritizing someone's interests. It's theft. > it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle. what aspects of my lifestyle do you believe society over-subsidizing?
- refurb 7y ago
  That's fine, it's their life. But they have to live with the consequences of their choices which may include poverty.
neilv 7y ago
> There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). One likely way to parse that is as a generalization of all poor people, which I think is inaccurate and harmful.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  Anyone from a poor background will tell you that this is true in a shockingly large number of cases. Crab bucket mentality is real, bread and circuses are real and most of all anti-intellectualism is definitely real and a core tenant of modern lower class society.
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    Person from a poor background here. You're generalizing.
    - neilv 7y ago
      Agreed, and don't be disheartened. There are a few topics on HN that bring out comments and voting that are surprising and confusing to me, and this is one of them. In this case, I have a sense that a certain generalization is very present in society, and harmful (e.g., a barrier to solving problems of injustice, or otherwise adversely affects how we treat each other). Someone might be speaking of their own anecdotal experience, and upset about that, and not thinking about why it might be important not to make blanket generalizations from that.
- mixedCase 7y ago
  I think that is a fairly belligerent view on a first-hand observation of a common issue.
- non-entity 7y ago
  Eh, I see a lot of of the same stuff from middle class people in the US as well tbf, so I don't think it's just poor people.
iherbig 7y ago
I think that what you are saying here doesn't necessarily serve as a counterpoint to the GP's point. Rather, it's only an additional piece of evidence. Where GP referred to things like a parent being sick serving as a downward pressure in the effort to improve one's circumstances the point is one of externalities which are not typically accounted for. And in this case, the externality you're bringing up is that oftentimes being raised poor means you're being raised in an anti-intellectual environment. And that externality is something that a lot of poor people have to deal with. It's another instance in which the game appears to be rigged against those from a poor background.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  By far the best thing people from a poor background can do to better themselves is to fight the culture they are surrounded by. This is why I say the parent post is not "helpful". When things seem hopeless, why fight? It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. I know other people are capable of this as well, even if not to the degree I was. It would be helpful if there was a narrative that it is possible. That reading and self-drive can help you. "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way. I saw one of the biggest issues was people feeling sorry for themselves and feeling helpless. This is why I react negatively when people who are clearly trying to help poor people do it in ways that don't espouse personal responsibility. It's well meaning, but counterproductive.
  - akiselev 7y ago
    > "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way. Does anyone even say that? It's not rich people stacking the deck, it's nature. The rich just happen to have a lot more tools (money) available to deal with that deck. > It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. You even touch on it here, so clearly you are aware that your struggles had nothing to do with rich people (except maybe tangentially) but with the environment you were in. That's what people talk about when they talk about the deck being stacked against someone.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bcrosby95 7y ago
Sure. But I was a lazy entitled "upper middle class" kid. I have my job because my parents could afford to support my lazy ass for so long. So yeah, if you have the grit and drive you can help yourself out to a certain point. But some of us didn't need any grit and basically coasted through life. Why do I deserve this more than kids with less well off parents that fell somewhere between me and you - not a complete lazy ass, but also not determined enough to overcome the problems and external pressures in their life?
- malvosenior 7y ago
  Your story is exactly why poor people should work hard. Plenty of people (not all) in the upper middle class are lazy and have had things handed to them. If you work hard, you can get ahead precisely because those people won't out compete you.
- spaginal 7y ago
  Because your parents worked hard for your outcome, as theirs did for them. It's the same thing that drives the success of societies and nations, each generation living on the bounty of the blood, sweat, and toil of those that came before. An outsider may view with envy at the position of the people in the society, but it doesn't diminish the rights of the people in that society to it just because they didn't make it. What happens is those societies that destroy, denigrate, or forget their history get complacent, lazy, and fail. Your parents likely failed in properly educating you in the history of your family, their trials, their successes, and you lacked context for your position in life. Deep dive into your family history, learn your ancestors, the shit they had to deal with, why you are where you are, and erase the self loathing class warfare mentality from your perspective.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
diob 7y ago
I'm a bit like you. I'm very much so a self starter (maybe I'm assuming a bit there), an avid reader, and I grew up in a situation I wouldn't wish on anyone. I turned out more than alright, but like you said, it's due to a massive amount of hard work. I figured I'd offer a different point of view for you to consider. First off, I want to make it clear I respect that you likely feel like the parent comment takes away from your hard work. No one is questioning that hard work and perseverance makes a difference in life. You and I are probably good examples of that. However, I want to also make it clear that even though we got where we are today through hard work, it doesn't hurt either of us to consider how much further we could have gotten (or how much faster) if we were afforded the advantages others had. For instance, I wish I could go start my own business, but I have to weigh the fact that I have zero social safety net. As such I'm left to save for at least few years in a salaried position before I can even consider it (and yes, I do hack my own side projects in my off hours). You're probably thinking I should just go do it, right? Well, I need the medical insurance unfortunately. I have a sleep disorder called sleep apnea (and before you assume I'm fat or something, I'm a gym rat). One night without my machine will likely result in my death one day (my AHI is 79). Now consider those who have it worse than me! Inequality is a given, it's not a debate to be had. What if you had been born blind? Or with fetal alcohol syndrome? Just do some hard work friend! What if you not only lacked a system of support, but had a system of the opposite? People actively trying to ruin your life while growing up? This is a reality for a lot of folks! So when you say "it's possible!", yes of course it is. But is it likely? No. The environment you're born in, the safety net you have, the people around you, the medical conditions you have, they all have a tremendous effect on your life. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best, but more likely willfully ignorant and prideful. Am I proud to be where I am? Yes, and a discussion on inequality doesn't make me feel threatened. It shouldn't feel threatening to you either. Yes, hard work like ours can sometimes overcome terrible scenarios. But even I know I could wake up tomorrow with cancer and find my life savings drained. No amount of hard work can save me from that situation. You're also assuming that those friends / family / neighbors you grew up with didn't work hard. Just because they weren't successful (your words by the way, not their own I'm sure), doesn't mean they didn't work hard. Hard work does not equate to "success" (or what you think of as success) in all scenarios. That's life. The parent comment tried to explain all this, and honestly probably did a better job than I did, but I figured I would offer you my point of view.
casper313 7y ago
Is it more about knowing that venture/activity/learning will get you somewhere. Why do African American youth more prominent in sports activities and music entertainment and not educational activities? Because through generations and partially media, that is the the (only) way to success. If there are no role models, sometimes it is hard to believe that one can make it if "noone" else broke that mold.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.

malvosenior 7y ago
That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.
- ddingus 7y ago
  Both of you have valid points. I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life. Our choices matter. Of course they do. What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes. No matter how great our ability to choose is, the fact is only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. The other fact is luck plays a huge role.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary. I'm not entirely sure it's unnecessary. Not everyone can live an upper middle class lifestyle. My main message is that there's culture changes that can and must be enacted within those communities or individuals that will provide opportunity.
    - ddingus 7y ago
      Yes, and the system we live under selects away from that. A majority are struggling today. Unnecessary.
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        I think you'll find it's not just "today". The majority have always struggled.
        ddingus 7y ago
        Regardless, the current and growing level of struggle is unnecessary. Examples elsewhere in the world are not hard to find.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        I'm not sure I agree with you. By pretty much every measure, humans are living better lives than in all of the history of humanity. https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy
        ddingus 7y ago
        In basic terms, wealth is about time. Poor people, regardless of the relative wealth or advancement in the society they live in, have most of their time purposed for them. Wealthy people purpose most of their time. The majority struggling are poor in this sense. That is unnecessary. As a species, yes! We are doing well. No argument. Here, right now, in the US, a majority suffer. Their income is not up to their cost and risk exposure, particularly with health care. They labor too much. I could go on. Massive gains have not played out as solid gains in life quality and wealth basics most would agree were set decades ago.
throwaway631673 7y ago
I disagree. Yes, you should not tell other people how to live their lives. But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle. I had to support my brothers for a long time. They just stayed with my parents, played video games all day, hung out with wrong crowd at night, and complained about lack of money. My parents would guilt me into giving my brothers some handout. And then they complained about capitalism. And I would complain about them not working and not able to do thing I wanted to with my money but my parent always shamed me for being selfish. After a lot of nagging and many time refusing to give handouts, they slowly got decent jobs and are doing pretty good. I just wish I had nagged earlier and stopped supporting their lifestyle with my money. So based on my personal experiences, I don't agree that we should spend our tax dollars on helping poor but don't shame them about their unhealthy lifestyle.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "But if these people who make poor choices and then look for handouts, from your tax dollars, then you have right to complain about their lifestyle." But my tax dollars go to handouts for things I think are bad choices all the time to the wealthy! My tax dollars are used to subsidize industries I don't agree with to continue in their wasteful useage of resources. If we are to protest bad decisions begging for handouts, we should first complain about the lifestyles of board members of companies. Johnson and Johnson knowingly created abestos-laden baby powder[1] and they recieved 8 million in federal subidies, 80 million in state/local ones. With an additional 10 million in federal loans. [0] 0. https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-johnson https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/johnson-and-... 1. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsona...
  - malandrew 7y ago
    That's not an argument against the point you're replying to. We shouldn't subsidize wastefulness by either the rich or the poor when they make poor choices and squander opportunities and resources.
newen 7y ago
It's their choice to spend their days watching football because there is a culture of anti-intellectualism. It's not as simple as it's their choice so don't criticize it.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  I disagree. If people fail to better themselves because they're surrounded anti-intellectuals, then nobody in the lower middle class would ever rise to upper middle; they would fail to challenge that culture. It's a personal choice to go with or against the prevailing culture. I empathize with the fact, that for many people who do want to better themselves, they're often surrounded by people who don't want to. And that's a tough situation to be in -- that can drag you down. It's tough to persevere in certain situations.
malandrew 7y ago
I don't concern myself with what such people do up until they start voting for politicians that want to raise taxes on everyone else to subsidize their lifestyle.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  It's the same with personal health choices. You don't just die in a vacuum when your health decisions come home to roost. Rather, you take from finite, shared medical resources. For that reason, "my body, my choices" isn't as bulletproof as it seems at first glance. I'm reminded of all the people who weren't allowed back into evacuation zones during the latest surge of forest fires to save more belongings from their house. People invoke the reasonable point of "I should be able to make that gamble if I want" but in reality, if they were to find themselves in danger, they'd be squandering resources of emergency responders having to save them and the attention of other people who should be working on evacuating swiftly rather than saving their neighbor. It's not always obvious where to draw the line when concerning ourselves with the actions of others.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  Money as it currently exists isn't personal property, it's an instrument for managing debt incurred by economic activity. Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests. Sucks for you, but then, it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    > Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests We shouldn't be prioritizing anyone's interests via an institution with the right to licit first use of force. We have the technology now to charge people directly for the government-provided services they use. If you use it, you should pay for it. Until we start doing this, society is never going to price things properly and prices are the fastest mechanism for a society to communicate what is important. Unilaterally taking away IOUs someone has accumulated without recompense merely deprioritizing someone's interests. It's theft. > it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle. what aspects of my lifestyle do you believe society over-subsidizing?
refurb 7y ago
That's fine, it's their life. But they have to live with the consequences of their choices which may include poverty.

neilv 7y ago

> There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). One likely way to parse that is as a generalization of all poor people, which I think is inaccurate and harmful.

malvosenior 7y ago
Anyone from a poor background will tell you that this is true in a shockingly large number of cases. Crab bucket mentality is real, bread and circuses are real and most of all anti-intellectualism is definitely real and a core tenant of modern lower class society.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Person from a poor background here. You're generalizing.
  - neilv 7y ago
    Agreed, and don't be disheartened. There are a few topics on HN that bring out comments and voting that are surprising and confusing to me, and this is one of them. In this case, I have a sense that a certain generalization is very present in society, and harmful (e.g., a barrier to solving problems of injustice, or otherwise adversely affects how we treat each other). Someone might be speaking of their own anecdotal experience, and upset about that, and not thinking about why it might be important not to make blanket generalizations from that.
mixedCase 7y ago
I think that is a fairly belligerent view on a first-hand observation of a common issue.
non-entity 7y ago
Eh, I see a lot of of the same stuff from middle class people in the US as well tbf, so I don't think it's just poor people.

iherbig 7y ago

I think that what you are saying here doesn't necessarily serve as a counterpoint to the GP's point. Rather, it's only an additional piece of evidence. Where GP referred to things like a parent being sick serving as a downward pressure in the effort to improve one's circumstances the point is one of externalities which are not typically accounted for. And in this case, the externality you're bringing up is that oftentimes being raised poor means you're being raised in an anti-intellectual environment. And that externality is something that a lot of poor people have to deal with. It's another instance in which the game appears to be rigged against those from a poor background.

malvosenior 7y ago
By far the best thing people from a poor background can do to better themselves is to fight the culture they are surrounded by. This is why I say the parent post is not "helpful". When things seem hopeless, why fight? It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. I know other people are capable of this as well, even if not to the degree I was. It would be helpful if there was a narrative that it is possible. That reading and self-drive can help you. "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way. I saw one of the biggest issues was people feeling sorry for themselves and feeling helpless. This is why I react negatively when people who are clearly trying to help poor people do it in ways that don't espouse personal responsibility. It's well meaning, but counterproductive.
- akiselev 7y ago
  > "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way. Does anyone even say that? It's not rich people stacking the deck, it's nature. The rich just happen to have a lot more tools (money) available to deal with that deck. > It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. You even touch on it here, so clearly you are aware that your struggles had nothing to do with rich people (except maybe tangentially) but with the environment you were in. That's what people talk about when they talk about the deck being stacked against someone.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bcrosby95 7y ago

Sure. But I was a lazy entitled "upper middle class" kid. I have my job because my parents could afford to support my lazy ass for so long. So yeah, if you have the grit and drive you can help yourself out to a certain point. But some of us didn't need any grit and basically coasted through life. Why do I deserve this more than kids with less well off parents that fell somewhere between me and you - not a complete lazy ass, but also not determined enough to overcome the problems and external pressures in their life?

malvosenior 7y ago
Your story is exactly why poor people should work hard. Plenty of people (not all) in the upper middle class are lazy and have had things handed to them. If you work hard, you can get ahead precisely because those people won't out compete you.
spaginal 7y ago
Because your parents worked hard for your outcome, as theirs did for them. It's the same thing that drives the success of societies and nations, each generation living on the bounty of the blood, sweat, and toil of those that came before. An outsider may view with envy at the position of the people in the society, but it doesn't diminish the rights of the people in that society to it just because they didn't make it. What happens is those societies that destroy, denigrate, or forget their history get complacent, lazy, and fail. Your parents likely failed in properly educating you in the history of your family, their trials, their successes, and you lacked context for your position in life. Deep dive into your family history, learn your ancestors, the shit they had to deal with, why you are where you are, and erase the self loathing class warfare mentality from your perspective.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago

diob 7y ago

I'm a bit like you. I'm very much so a self starter (maybe I'm assuming a bit there), an avid reader, and I grew up in a situation I wouldn't wish on anyone. I turned out more than alright, but like you said, it's due to a massive amount of hard work. I figured I'd offer a different point of view for you to consider. First off, I want to make it clear I respect that you likely feel like the parent comment takes away from your hard work. No one is questioning that hard work and perseverance makes a difference in life. You and I are probably good examples of that. However, I want to also make it clear that even though we got where we are today through hard work, it doesn't hurt either of us to consider how much further we could have gotten (or how much faster) if we were afforded the advantages others had. For instance, I wish I could go start my own business, but I have to weigh the fact that I have zero social safety net. As such I'm left to save for at least few years in a salaried position before I can even consider it (and yes, I do hack my own side projects in my off hours). You're probably thinking I should just go do it, right? Well, I need the medical insurance unfortunately. I have a sleep disorder called sleep apnea (and before you assume I'm fat or something, I'm a gym rat). One night without my machine will likely result in my death one day (my AHI is 79). Now consider those who have it worse than me! Inequality is a given, it's not a debate to be had. What if you had been born blind? Or with fetal alcohol syndrome? Just do some hard work friend! What if you not only lacked a system of support, but had a system of the opposite? People actively trying to ruin your life while growing up? This is a reality for a lot of folks! So when you say "it's possible!", yes of course it is. But is it likely? No. The environment you're born in, the safety net you have, the people around you, the medical conditions you have, they all have a tremendous effect on your life. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best, but more likely willfully ignorant and prideful. Am I proud to be where I am? Yes, and a discussion on inequality doesn't make me feel threatened. It shouldn't feel threatening to you either. Yes, hard work like ours can sometimes overcome terrible scenarios. But even I know I could wake up tomorrow with cancer and find my life savings drained. No amount of hard work can save me from that situation. You're also assuming that those friends / family / neighbors you grew up with didn't work hard. Just because they weren't successful (your words by the way, not their own I'm sure), doesn't mean they didn't work hard. Hard work does not equate to "success" (or what you think of as success) in all scenarios. That's life. The parent comment tried to explain all this, and honestly probably did a better job than I did, but I figured I would offer you my point of view.

casper313 7y ago

Is it more about knowing that venture/activity/learning will get you somewhere. Why do African American youth more prominent in sports activities and music entertainment and not educational activities? Because through generations and partially media, that is the the (only) way to success. If there are no role models, sometimes it is hard to believe that one can make it if "noone" else broke that mold.