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So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some word they made up to classify themselves as something? Don't tell me what I can or can't say, and I wont tell you who/what you can and can't screw. How do fascists not realize they are being such? "You don't have proper thoughts on matters so you aren't allowed to speak".

thelazydogsback 7y ago
Yes, mywittyname & effingwewt -- I obviously sympathize. It's hard to believe that we are destroying the planet, we are still killing each other over tribal-like issues, people don't have access to clean water and sanitation, various groups are disadvantaged based on where they are born, etc. -- and what pronoun to use for a third party on a technical forum is what we're spending our energy on. We need a new gender-neutral pronoun -- I suggest "whoeverthefuck".
- ictebres 7y ago
  There are people committing suicide, being harassed and not being accepted as they are so using wrong gender is pretty fucked up thing to do especially because it is so easy to do right.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    > being harassed and not being accepted as they are Could you elaborate? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If it looks like a male, dresses like a male, then it's most likely a male and I'm gonna call him "he" because that's the logical thing to do. I don't think it's wrong nor there is any malicious intent for people to use these basic heuristics when determining gender considering they are going to be right 99% of the time, and it would be a big downgrade in productivity if we start wasting time debating whether someone is a he or a she while these heuristics worked for centuries and still work 99% of the time. Otherwise, where do we draw the line? It's male and female today, how long is it going to be before someone shows up and decides that none of those apply to him and he wants to be accepted as a solar panel - should everyone accept, embrace & encourage his twisted view of reality?
  - vunie 7y ago
    This may be insensitive (and I apologize if it is) but if being referenced by normal pronouns is enough to drive someone to commit suicide (or cause emotional distress), I'd argue that this person is in more need of medical treatment than having his or her quirks pandered to by others. Using a language normally doesn't cause problems for healthy human beings.
    - detaro 7y ago
      "normal pronouns"?
      - vunie 7y ago
        > "normal pronouns"? What english language speakers normally use when refering to a person, usually based on the perceived gender of said person.
  - michannne 7y ago
    > it is so easy to do right Using the wrong gender is enough to cause someone to commit suicide? So instead of getting to the bottom of the issue as to why calling someone "him" instead of "her" is enough for them to take their own life, and then putting up the safety nets so that this does not happen (which CAN be done - type any vaguely suicidal query into Google and you can see suicide hotlines and help center phone numbers and locations at the top of the page), it is more effective to pressure others into using the "correct" pronoun? It is hard enough to get people to talk strictly about work, at work, but somehow it's easier to convince people to change their entire thought process so that they use the terms you deemed acceptable?
McGlockenshire 7y ago
> How do fascists not realize they are being such? What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.
- effingwewt 7y ago
  There's a world of difference between using gender neutral pronouns and purposely misgendering. And even then, intent matters. Gender does not. I dont care who or what you consider yourself, I'm glad we as a society have choices. I want everyone to be themselves, again I've had friends and family memebers whose lives were ruined or made difficult for being gay. But to tell me if I dont use whatever flavor of the week pronoun, I am harassing someone, and taking my right to speak for not conforming is facism.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AgentME 7y ago
  Agreed. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading most of the commentary here on HN or elsewhere about this. I get that there's some details about this case that are a bit ambiguous, but it doesn't seem obviously worth a witchhunt of SO. If it seemed to SO like a moderator was looking for loopholes for not enforcing a CoC, then I don't think it's wrong for them to consider the moderator as working in bad faith and not moderator material.
  - SeanBoocock 7y ago
    Likewise. I am shocked by the lack of empathy expressed by many here and on SO. Pronouns may be a small thing for a cis person, but for others they are a way to reclaim an identity denied to them. To deny anyone that basic level of respect is unconscionable, regardless of whether a code of conduct enforces it or not. A person tasked with enforcing community norms who is unwilling to do that and more, who subverts drafting a policy in bad faith, has no business being a moderator.
- vunie 7y ago
CJefferson 7y ago
So, you consider it your choice to decide if people should be described using Male or female pronouns, and believe it would be fascist for someone to say "actually, I'm Male. Please refer to me as he, not she?". It just feels impolite to me to not refer to people by their gender. Is it that upsetting to give people their name and gender? What right of yours does this infringe?
- kupiakos 7y ago
  As a trans person, it feels impolite (well, insulting) to refer to people as the _wrong_ gender. I don't see it as impolite to avoid gendered language in the case of not knowing one's gender, and only impolite in the case of knowing one's gender if great lengths are taken to avoid gendering.
- effingwewt 7y ago
  No, I'm saying I get to decide what I say, not you. If the gender neutral 'they' ,' you' etc aren't enough for you then we don't need to speak with each other. What's impolite is demanding I conform to your view and forcing me to learn some words you made up and use them every time we speak. And again, it's a self-applied label. Don't force me to use your made up words, I won't tell you what to do with your life. ps- I grew up in the 80s when gay and trans people were very much oppressed, unlike now. I stood up for their rights, got in actual fights for them on several occasions. And now im called CIS scum for being a straight male. I have family members I've had to stand with against other family members because they were gay. I love them dearly and even to them I say 'I respect your liberties, please respect mine'.
dang 7y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

thelazydogsback 7y ago

Yes, mywittyname & effingwewt -- I obviously sympathize. It's hard to believe that we are destroying the planet, we are still killing each other over tribal-like issues, people don't have access to clean water and sanitation, various groups are disadvantaged based on where they are born, etc. -- and what pronoun to use for a third party on a technical forum is what we're spending our energy on. We need a new gender-neutral pronoun -- I suggest "whoeverthefuck".

ictebres 7y ago
There are people committing suicide, being harassed and not being accepted as they are so using wrong gender is pretty fucked up thing to do especially because it is so easy to do right.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  > being harassed and not being accepted as they are Could you elaborate? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If it looks like a male, dresses like a male, then it's most likely a male and I'm gonna call him "he" because that's the logical thing to do. I don't think it's wrong nor there is any malicious intent for people to use these basic heuristics when determining gender considering they are going to be right 99% of the time, and it would be a big downgrade in productivity if we start wasting time debating whether someone is a he or a she while these heuristics worked for centuries and still work 99% of the time. Otherwise, where do we draw the line? It's male and female today, how long is it going to be before someone shows up and decides that none of those apply to him and he wants to be accepted as a solar panel - should everyone accept, embrace & encourage his twisted view of reality?
- vunie 7y ago
  This may be insensitive (and I apologize if it is) but if being referenced by normal pronouns is enough to drive someone to commit suicide (or cause emotional distress), I'd argue that this person is in more need of medical treatment than having his or her quirks pandered to by others. Using a language normally doesn't cause problems for healthy human beings.
  - detaro 7y ago
    "normal pronouns"?
    - vunie 7y ago
      > "normal pronouns"? What english language speakers normally use when refering to a person, usually based on the perceived gender of said person.
- michannne 7y ago
  > it is so easy to do right Using the wrong gender is enough to cause someone to commit suicide? So instead of getting to the bottom of the issue as to why calling someone "him" instead of "her" is enough for them to take their own life, and then putting up the safety nets so that this does not happen (which CAN be done - type any vaguely suicidal query into Google and you can see suicide hotlines and help center phone numbers and locations at the top of the page), it is more effective to pressure others into using the "correct" pronoun? It is hard enough to get people to talk strictly about work, at work, but somehow it's easier to convince people to change their entire thought process so that they use the terms you deemed acceptable?

McGlockenshire 7y ago

> How do fascists not realize they are being such? What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.

effingwewt 7y ago
There's a world of difference between using gender neutral pronouns and purposely misgendering. And even then, intent matters. Gender does not. I dont care who or what you consider yourself, I'm glad we as a society have choices. I want everyone to be themselves, again I've had friends and family memebers whose lives were ruined or made difficult for being gay. But to tell me if I dont use whatever flavor of the week pronoun, I am harassing someone, and taking my right to speak for not conforming is facism.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
AgentME 7y ago
Agreed. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading most of the commentary here on HN or elsewhere about this. I get that there's some details about this case that are a bit ambiguous, but it doesn't seem obviously worth a witchhunt of SO. If it seemed to SO like a moderator was looking for loopholes for not enforcing a CoC, then I don't think it's wrong for them to consider the moderator as working in bad faith and not moderator material.
- SeanBoocock 7y ago
  Likewise. I am shocked by the lack of empathy expressed by many here and on SO. Pronouns may be a small thing for a cis person, but for others they are a way to reclaim an identity denied to them. To deny anyone that basic level of respect is unconscionable, regardless of whether a code of conduct enforces it or not. A person tasked with enforcing community norms who is unwilling to do that and more, who subverts drafting a policy in bad faith, has no business being a moderator.
vunie 7y ago

CJefferson 7y ago

So, you consider it your choice to decide if people should be described using Male or female pronouns, and believe it would be fascist for someone to say "actually, I'm Male. Please refer to me as he, not she?". It just feels impolite to me to not refer to people by their gender. Is it that upsetting to give people their name and gender? What right of yours does this infringe?

kupiakos 7y ago
As a trans person, it feels impolite (well, insulting) to refer to people as the _wrong_ gender. I don't see it as impolite to avoid gendered language in the case of not knowing one's gender, and only impolite in the case of knowing one's gender if great lengths are taken to avoid gendering.
effingwewt 7y ago
No, I'm saying I get to decide what I say, not you. If the gender neutral 'they' ,' you' etc aren't enough for you then we don't need to speak with each other. What's impolite is demanding I conform to your view and forcing me to learn some words you made up and use them every time we speak. And again, it's a self-applied label. Don't force me to use your made up words, I won't tell you what to do with your life. ps- I grew up in the 80s when gay and trans people were very much oppressed, unlike now. I stood up for their rights, got in actual fights for them on several occasions. And now im called CIS scum for being a straight male. I have family members I've had to stand with against other family members because they were gay. I love them dearly and even to them I say 'I respect your liberties, please respect mine'.

dang 7y ago

Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html