5 ms·

“Modernism is the problem!” harrumphed the American Conservative, forgetting as usual that X was also once very modern. ◔_◔

fulvous 7y ago
Ideas that have stood the test of time might be better than a flash in the pan craze.
- urthen 7y ago
  Key word there being "might." It could also be that the new thing is way better than the old thing. Being traditional does not make something right. After all, slavery has been around for probably tens thousands of years, and only in the past few hundred has the common moral fabric largely agreed that it is a Bad Thing.
  - fulvous 7y ago
    Being new doesn't make something right either and they have been less tested. Also, the Lindy effect suggest that ideas that have been around longer will also continue longer.
deogeo 7y ago
It's almost as if 'Modernism' refers to a specific (albeit vaguely defined) style, and not to the property of being new itself. They're not ranting against semiconductors or antibiotics (both also relatively modern), are they?
- spanktheuser 7y ago
  Of course not, but these are not relatively modern. They're now part of traditional fabric of society for current conservatives. I think it's more apt to look at how conservatives of the time felt about new and paradigm shifting advances. They led the charges against the scientific revolution when it threatened to subvert authority & mechanisms of control, strongly opposing Copernicus, Bruno, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton. Opposition to Darwin continues to this day in some quarters. And antipathy towards modern advancements in reproductive health is still very strong. In any case, if conservatives come at modernist styles of expression & ornamentation, they should bring receipts. Or their arguments will smack of the notorious cries of "moral degeneracy" for which conservative thought is justly infamous. In this case, I feel like the author is found wanting and the article unworthy of HN. There are amazing, actionable critiques of dehumanizing trends in architecture and urban planning (Jane Jacobs, Christopher Alexander), but this is not one of them.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    > Of course not, but these are not relatively modern. About as modern as the steel-and-glass/nookless style he criticizes, that gained prominence after the World Wars [1,2]. Ignoring the guilt-by-association/ad-hominem part of your post, what do you find so lacking in his critique? I'll grant that it's a long-winded way to say "it's ugly, sterile, and unpleasant to live in", but I'd say that's a valid (if subjective) complaint. What sort of critiques did Jane Jacobs and Christopher Alexander make? I'm very curious. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antibiotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antibiotics [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture
gumby 7y ago
In this case “Modernism” is a term of art (or jargon) referring to a specific 20th century movement against conservative classicism in art and design. I am sure all the subscribers to that magazine have smart phones. But it’s a magazine that takes a conservative stance.
Dirlewanger 7y ago
Such is civilization. The eternal turn of the wheel. What was once exciting and iconoclastic is now drab and dated.
diminoten 7y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the premise that books and crannies are beloved in the first place. Maybe if you have no fear of being trapped or surprised as you walk down a street, but for the folks who don't want to get mugged, maybe wider, flatter streets are a good thing.

fulvous 7y ago

Ideas that have stood the test of time might be better than a flash in the pan craze.

urthen 7y ago
Key word there being "might." It could also be that the new thing is way better than the old thing. Being traditional does not make something right. After all, slavery has been around for probably tens thousands of years, and only in the past few hundred has the common moral fabric largely agreed that it is a Bad Thing.
- fulvous 7y ago
  Being new doesn't make something right either and they have been less tested. Also, the Lindy effect suggest that ideas that have been around longer will also continue longer.

deogeo 7y ago

It's almost as if 'Modernism' refers to a specific (albeit vaguely defined) style, and not to the property of being new itself. They're not ranting against semiconductors or antibiotics (both also relatively modern), are they?

spanktheuser 7y ago
Of course not, but these are not relatively modern. They're now part of traditional fabric of society for current conservatives. I think it's more apt to look at how conservatives of the time felt about new and paradigm shifting advances. They led the charges against the scientific revolution when it threatened to subvert authority & mechanisms of control, strongly opposing Copernicus, Bruno, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton. Opposition to Darwin continues to this day in some quarters. And antipathy towards modern advancements in reproductive health is still very strong. In any case, if conservatives come at modernist styles of expression & ornamentation, they should bring receipts. Or their arguments will smack of the notorious cries of "moral degeneracy" for which conservative thought is justly infamous. In this case, I feel like the author is found wanting and the article unworthy of HN. There are amazing, actionable critiques of dehumanizing trends in architecture and urban planning (Jane Jacobs, Christopher Alexander), but this is not one of them.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > Of course not, but these are not relatively modern. About as modern as the steel-and-glass/nookless style he criticizes, that gained prominence after the World Wars [1,2]. Ignoring the guilt-by-association/ad-hominem part of your post, what do you find so lacking in his critique? I'll grant that it's a long-winded way to say "it's ugly, sterile, and unpleasant to live in", but I'd say that's a valid (if subjective) complaint. What sort of critiques did Jane Jacobs and Christopher Alexander make? I'm very curious. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antibiotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antibiotics [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture

gumby 7y ago

In this case “Modernism” is a term of art (or jargon) referring to a specific 20th century movement against conservative classicism in art and design. I am sure all the subscribers to that magazine have smart phones. But it’s a magazine that takes a conservative stance.

Dirlewanger 7y ago

Such is civilization. The eternal turn of the wheel. What was once exciting and iconoclastic is now drab and dated.

diminoten 7y ago

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the premise that books and crannies are beloved in the first place. Maybe if you have no fear of being trapped or surprised as you walk down a street, but for the folks who don't want to get mugged, maybe wider, flatter streets are a good thing.