15 ms·

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end. Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies. The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply, demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the hobby.

kragen 7y ago
> forged carbon top You can't forge carbon. It's not malleable. It shatters if you try to forge it. Are you making a joke about people being gullible, or are there some exotic solid-state physics involved here that I don't know about? Oh, apparently you mean molded plastic with a chopped carbon-fiber filler? Heh.
- lewisflude 7y ago
  This is what I'm referring to! Commonly used in luxury cars, I think it looks great! https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged-composite-a-new-way-of-using-carbon-fiber https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged... And this is the keyboard! https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/products/kepler-fc65 https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/pr...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pilsetnieks 7y ago
  It's not forged in a forge, it's just called that. It's just molded carbon fiber in resin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite
  - Filligree 7y ago
    I would be concerned about that. Carbon fiber isn't much better than asbestos, and while both are fine if sealed in a wall, we're talking about a keyboard taking daily wear and tear with the fibers sealed under a thin layer of glue. A keyboard cannot possibly need the tensile strength, so why not just use plastic?
    - kragen 7y ago
      People break keyboards all the time. Reinforcing them with carbon fiber seems reasonable to me. You seem to be confusing carbon fiber, which is a mild irritant like fiberglass, with carbon nanotubes. It's goofy that the keyboard enthusiasts got taken in by the marketroid term “forged carbon”, though.
      - Filligree 7y ago
        I have never once broken a keyboard. I can't imagine how I would -- sit on it? It's fixed on my desk. If I did need a stronger keyboard, I'd rather have it reinforced with steel. That would have the extra benefit of keeping it in place.
        kragen 7y ago
        Steel is a lot heavier and a lot weaker than carbon fiber. For you that's an advantage, but not for those of us who use our keyboards on trains, in cafés, in hostels, and in tents. The comforting weight of an IBM Type M keyboard gets old fast when it's stuffed in your backpack on a bike. That probably also helps explain how we break keyboards.
        Filligree 7y ago
        Ah, okay. To me that's what my laptop keyboard is for, but I think I understand better now.
        knolax 7y ago
        I used to travel with my mechanical keyboard a lot and the keyboard breaking while in a heavily stuffed backpack was definitely a big concern of mine.
phjesusthatguy3 7y ago
HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I see.
- ses1984 7y ago
  Since you pointed out, I was lambasting everyone in this thread in my own mind.
- james-mcelwain 7y ago
  The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio quality. You would definitely notice how nice an expensive mechanical keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.
  - panopticon 7y ago
    I'm curious how many could distinguish a $400 keyboard from a $1200 keyboard. Once you get into a certain price point, the returns diminish so quickly that I figure most would be unable to tell a difference.
    - phaus 7y ago
      There are switches that cost several dollars each that feel distinctly different. In general though I agree, with a specific set of switches, there is likely not a quantifiable improvement to be had by spending $800 more. However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds. Its not necessarily that more expensive switches = better experience, its more about getting exactly the type of switch you want. IMO the best switches I've ever used were $30 for a 61 key compact keyboard's worth.
pmarreck 7y ago
You would think (rationally at least) that people obsessed with the optimal interface between user and computer would focus on non-QWERTY layouts instead of dropping dough on intricate mechanical keyboards (yeah, cue "por que no los dos?" but still!)
- Enginerrrd 7y ago
  Honestly, they sort of do. I would definitely call any 60% with custom QMK firmware with function keys and layers a non-standard layout. For the alpha keys, the benefits to switching from QWERTY to say DVORAK or something are largely still theoretical. No one to my knowledge has proven definitively that it's actually superior. And it's a common myth that QWERTY was designed to slow typists down. It was designed to place the frequently used keys further apart from each other, which is not the same thing as trying to slow down typists. If that were the objective, you'd find yourself doing awkward pinkie reaches for 'T' and 'E' and the like. But even if DVORAK was superior, mastering it comes at significant costs. Chiefly, switching to a custom layout with function keys and stuff doesn't reprogram most basic typing, so you can jump on someone else's conventional keyboard pretty easily. If you reprogram yourself to be a DVORAK master, you are looking at some serious potential hindrance in flexibility since we live in a qwerty world.
- phaus 7y ago
  There's a lot of people in this hobby that use Dvorak, and the other obscure layout that I don't even remember the name of. Some even design and sell PCBs/entire kits for them. Most of the keyboards seem to use QMK, an open source, programmable firmware so you can do whatever you want. There's a lot of debate on those layouts and their usefulness. There's people that swear it saved them from RSI and there's people that say nothing can be proven about the health benefits of any alternative layout. There are a lot of people that switched to an alternative for a few weeks, months, or even a year and then went back to qwerty. I've stuck with qwerty so I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.
  - pmarreck 7y ago
    COLEMAK? is that the "other obscure layout"?
qroshan 7y ago
Great professionals (cooks, photographers) will definitely benefit from high-end tools because you get higher control (over craftsmanship), improved productivity etc. For a keyboard, the signal delivered to the computer (the thing that really matters) is the same. It's the same freaking 'A' that gets delivered whether you type in a $1 keyboard or the $2000 keyboard. Most prolific writers or software programmers (for whom the keyboard really matters) produce amazing and impactful artifacts with regular keyboards.
- lallysingh 7y ago
  I don't have crazy expensive keyboards, but I think your assessment is overly reductive. Good keyboards feel better (and are more comfortable for days on end) and reduce typos over bad ones.
- phaus 7y ago
  It is the same signal, I'm not sure but potentially drivers, microcontrollers, and other things may impact latency though. Not that mechanical keyboard enthusiasts seem to be focused on that. However, the type of switch you use can have an impact on all kinds of things, the speed at which you can type, the accuracy of your typing, your long term health, etc. Certain types of switches are also better suited to specific activities. For example, linear switches can usually be pressed faster, which makes them very slightly better for gaming. There are even gaming oriented linear switches that have reduced key travel to further increase speed. The speed impact is going to be near non-noticeable in its impact on game performance for everyone but elite gamers, but anyone is going to be able to tell that certain switches fatigue their hands less than others.

kragen 7y ago

> forged carbon top You can't forge carbon. It's not malleable. It shatters if you try to forge it. Are you making a joke about people being gullible, or are there some exotic solid-state physics involved here that I don't know about? Oh, apparently you mean molded plastic with a chopped carbon-fiber filler? Heh.

lewisflude 7y ago
This is what I'm referring to! Commonly used in luxury cars, I think it looks great! https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged-composite-a-new-way-of-using-carbon-fiber https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged... And this is the keyboard! https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/products/kepler-fc65 https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/pr...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pilsetnieks 7y ago
It's not forged in a forge, it's just called that. It's just molded carbon fiber in resin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite
- Filligree 7y ago
  I would be concerned about that. Carbon fiber isn't much better than asbestos, and while both are fine if sealed in a wall, we're talking about a keyboard taking daily wear and tear with the fibers sealed under a thin layer of glue. A keyboard cannot possibly need the tensile strength, so why not just use plastic?
  - kragen 7y ago
    People break keyboards all the time. Reinforcing them with carbon fiber seems reasonable to me. You seem to be confusing carbon fiber, which is a mild irritant like fiberglass, with carbon nanotubes. It's goofy that the keyboard enthusiasts got taken in by the marketroid term “forged carbon”, though.
    - Filligree 7y ago
      I have never once broken a keyboard. I can't imagine how I would -- sit on it? It's fixed on my desk. If I did need a stronger keyboard, I'd rather have it reinforced with steel. That would have the extra benefit of keeping it in place.
      - kragen 7y ago
        Steel is a lot heavier and a lot weaker than carbon fiber. For you that's an advantage, but not for those of us who use our keyboards on trains, in cafés, in hostels, and in tents. The comforting weight of an IBM Type M keyboard gets old fast when it's stuffed in your backpack on a bike. That probably also helps explain how we break keyboards.
        Filligree 7y ago
        Ah, okay. To me that's what my laptop keyboard is for, but I think I understand better now.
      - knolax 7y ago
        I used to travel with my mechanical keyboard a lot and the keyboard breaking while in a heavily stuffed backpack was definitely a big concern of mine.

phjesusthatguy3 7y ago

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I see.

ses1984 7y ago
Since you pointed out, I was lambasting everyone in this thread in my own mind.
james-mcelwain 7y ago
The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio quality. You would definitely notice how nice an expensive mechanical keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.
- panopticon 7y ago
  I'm curious how many could distinguish a $400 keyboard from a $1200 keyboard. Once you get into a certain price point, the returns diminish so quickly that I figure most would be unable to tell a difference.
  - phaus 7y ago
    There are switches that cost several dollars each that feel distinctly different. In general though I agree, with a specific set of switches, there is likely not a quantifiable improvement to be had by spending $800 more. However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds. Its not necessarily that more expensive switches = better experience, its more about getting exactly the type of switch you want. IMO the best switches I've ever used were $30 for a 61 key compact keyboard's worth.

pmarreck 7y ago

You would think (rationally at least) that people obsessed with the optimal interface between user and computer would focus on non-QWERTY layouts instead of dropping dough on intricate mechanical keyboards (yeah, cue "por que no los dos?" but still!)

Enginerrrd 7y ago
Honestly, they sort of do. I would definitely call any 60% with custom QMK firmware with function keys and layers a non-standard layout. For the alpha keys, the benefits to switching from QWERTY to say DVORAK or something are largely still theoretical. No one to my knowledge has proven definitively that it's actually superior. And it's a common myth that QWERTY was designed to slow typists down. It was designed to place the frequently used keys further apart from each other, which is not the same thing as trying to slow down typists. If that were the objective, you'd find yourself doing awkward pinkie reaches for 'T' and 'E' and the like. But even if DVORAK was superior, mastering it comes at significant costs. Chiefly, switching to a custom layout with function keys and stuff doesn't reprogram most basic typing, so you can jump on someone else's conventional keyboard pretty easily. If you reprogram yourself to be a DVORAK master, you are looking at some serious potential hindrance in flexibility since we live in a qwerty world.
phaus 7y ago
There's a lot of people in this hobby that use Dvorak, and the other obscure layout that I don't even remember the name of. Some even design and sell PCBs/entire kits for them. Most of the keyboards seem to use QMK, an open source, programmable firmware so you can do whatever you want. There's a lot of debate on those layouts and their usefulness. There's people that swear it saved them from RSI and there's people that say nothing can be proven about the health benefits of any alternative layout. There are a lot of people that switched to an alternative for a few weeks, months, or even a year and then went back to qwerty. I've stuck with qwerty so I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.
- pmarreck 7y ago
  COLEMAK? is that the "other obscure layout"?

qroshan 7y ago

Great professionals (cooks, photographers) will definitely benefit from high-end tools because you get higher control (over craftsmanship), improved productivity etc. For a keyboard, the signal delivered to the computer (the thing that really matters) is the same. It's the same freaking 'A' that gets delivered whether you type in a $1 keyboard or the $2000 keyboard. Most prolific writers or software programmers (for whom the keyboard really matters) produce amazing and impactful artifacts with regular keyboards.

lallysingh 7y ago
I don't have crazy expensive keyboards, but I think your assessment is overly reductive. Good keyboards feel better (and are more comfortable for days on end) and reduce typos over bad ones.
phaus 7y ago
It is the same signal, I'm not sure but potentially drivers, microcontrollers, and other things may impact latency though. Not that mechanical keyboard enthusiasts seem to be focused on that. However, the type of switch you use can have an impact on all kinds of things, the speed at which you can type, the accuracy of your typing, your long term health, etc. Certain types of switches are also better suited to specific activities. For example, linear switches can usually be pressed faster, which makes them very slightly better for gaming. There are even gaming oriented linear switches that have reduced key travel to further increase speed. The speed impact is going to be near non-noticeable in its impact on game performance for everyone but elite gamers, but anyone is going to be able to tell that certain switches fatigue their hands less than others.